Beetlejuice Fan Theory

Vanya: *writing about Allison in 'Extra Ordinary'*

It's mostly just dumb sister stuff.I mean, like, everyone always thought of her as the pretty one...Oh, she was the first one to start walking. Even though I did it, later that same day. But to our dad, by then it was like, "Yeah, right, so what else is new?"

^^^^^^^ All of this.

There's a difference between 'telling your own version' of a myth, and telling a completely different story. If you need to change a pre-existing character so much that they feel like a new character, then it's simply bad writing.

Miller is especially self-righteous about her retellings in interviews. Are her retellings 'other versions' of the myths? If by 'other versions' you mean distorting the mythology and missing its point, or utilizing foreign mythology as an aesthetic to draw people in, then yeah, I guess.

Readers who are ignorant of the myths or have no respect for the culture those myths belong to, will then take Miller's distorted stories as fact, and assume that hers is the correct way of telling them. And, evidently, Miller's fans will not tolerate anyone criticizing her.

Well I promise you that her books give the opposite impression.

In fact, her characterization of Patroclus alone is enough for me to doubt her both as an academic and as a researcher.

(Not to mention her tendency to invent unnecessary details, things that don't happen in the myths, like Circe getting assaulted, which was specifically added to 'justify' Circe's behaviour in the Odyssey. A+ writing, how very progressive)

A classicist like Miller should know that when you apply modern standards to an ancient myth, essentially removing it from the era in which it was written, and ignoring the reasons the myth was created, then you're missing half of the context.

Either she

has severely misunderstood the characters in the Homeric epics and Greek mythology in general (which doesn't say much about her as a classicist), or

she does understand the characters in the myths, but she cares more about what kind of story will 'sell'. She's thinking, "Let's see, if I frame Homer as problematic, and promote my books as the solution to the 'Homer problem', then of course people will prefer my stories."

If it's the latter, it's not a surprise, and she's not the first person to do it, and unfortunately she won't be the last.

@rightwheretheyleftme I think you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology. I think you're glorifying these retellings regardless of how off the mark they are when it comes to characterization.

@lez-exclude-men If you're enjoying Miller's books that much, then I hate to break it to you, but you are the one who needs to get 'elbows deep' in research. But if you have no desire to do all that work, maybe you shut up and let people express their opinions? Miller's work is flawed, and we are allowed to point it out.

This isn't about Miller being a woman, and it isn't about all retellings being inherently bad. This is about Miller not respecting and not understanding the mythology she's so eager to 'fix'.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

Luther: Dad sent me to the moon!

Ben: That's rough, buddy.

I'm just saying

(my contribution to this poll)

Kid Diego: Don't belittle me.

Kid Klaus: Ah, yes of course. Number 2 would like to clarify that just because his name is Number 2 does not imply in any way that he's inferior to Number 1.

Kid Diego: And all of the above.

Kid Luther: *murmurs something incoherent*

Kid Klaus: Number 1 says he's Number 1 for a reason and some people should just get used to it. 

Tethys: Titaness, daughter of Uranus and Gaia, wife of Oceanus and mother of the Oceanids. She was also Hera’s foster mother during the Titanomachy.

Styx: Oceanid, Zeus’ ally in the Titanomachy, mother of Nike, Zelus, Bia and Kratos. She’s the river that separates the Underworld from the living, and the one Gods swear their oaths upon.

Metis: Oceanid, the embodiment of wisdom and cunning, Athena’s mother by Zeus. She helped Zeus free his siblings and was his counsellor during the Titanomachy. 

Electra: Oceanid, she married the sea god Thaumas, and one of her kids was Iris, the messenger of the Gods. I drew her hair like that because her name derives from the word ἤλεκτρον, which means amber, and amber can acquire a static electricity charge. 

Iconic Golden Girls Things (as voted by you!)

#1: Picture it: Sicily... (28.3%)

'I’ll be the first person to call out when a person from an imperialist country is disrespectful against another culture’s traditions because this affects my everyday life.'

I see, thank you for sharing that. I repeat, however, I did not accuse you of xenophobia.

OP's post was harmless, including the tags. They were joking, they said so themselves. You're making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.

There was an interview where Miller specifically said "I wanted to push back against Homer". That's probably what I remembered, and same logic applies. How can she compare her books to ancient writings?

As for which characters she simplified, well, I've already mentioned Patroclus. The women in 'The song of Achilles' are depicted negatively because they get in the way of Patrochilles. In general Miller sees the Gods as modern sociopaths and describes them as such. Why did Helios need to be a bad father, for example? Simply for protagonist Circe's backstory? In Circe, it often feels like all the male characters have to be abusive purely for Miller's 'feminist' narrative.

You keep forgetting what I wrote:

This isn't about all retellings being inherently bad.

Let me put it this way; I enjoy fanfiction. Fanfiction is essentially a form of retelling. But here's the thing; even in fanfiction, where you put the pre-existing characters in a story that diverges from canon, or even in an AU, the characters are still 'in character'. If their personalities are different, then what's the point? You might as well be reading about completely different characters.

'The idea that reimaginings are “bad writing” is restrictive of the medium and dismissive of plenty of great works'

I was refering to the characters' personalities. Not the entire idea of a retelling. So again, I'm not anti-art, and again, I feel you're twisting my words.

You said in your previous response 'I don’t care for misinformed reviews'. Well, I don't care for people who repeatedly distort my opinions. And I especially do not need to justify myself to them, since they will twist anything I say.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

I had an epiphany

about Shrek 2.

And its groundbreaking character-development-foreshadowing.

We all remember ‘Accidentally in love’, the opening song, where our newlywed protagonists are having the time of their lives

There’s this lyric in the first verse:

How much longer will it take to cure this? Just to cure it, 'cause I can't ignore it if it's love (love) Makes me wanna turn around and face me

HMMMMM WHERE HAVE I HEARD THAT 

OH I KNOW

Much later in the movie, when Shrek has turned human and is returning to the castle, determined to change for the woman he loves, and ‘Changes’ plays in the background

AND WE HEAR THIS:

Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes                                                                                      Turn and face the strange

AND THIS (although this verse isn’t in the movie but it’s still IN THE SONG):

Every time I thought I'd got it made It seemed the taste was not so sweet So I turned myself to face me But I've never caught a glimpse

00.07