Do You Have Any Advice For Trying To Figure Out If Im A RAMCOA Survivor Or If Im Experiencing Delusions?

I lost the posts we wanted to respond to, but I think I remember what we were gonna say

🗝️🏷️ RAMCOA with vague examples, syscourse?

Highly Complex DID

What “Complex” Means:

From what we’ve read, it seems like Complex refers to the specific disorder’s criteria. C-PTSD is PTSD with a different presentation; in this case, multiple/prolonged trauma causes difficulty tracing symptoms in the same ways as other PTSD cases. C-DID is DID with a different presentation; here it’s more intricate mechanisms that lead treatment down another path. Even CDD, which is dissociation into self-states instead of one dissociating self-state. The C just means that thing, plus some extra. There are going to be cases where a Complex patient is actually more simple to care for than a non-Complex patient — it’s just a matter of narrowing it down with more criteria.

Highly Complex:

As far as I know, there are no other communities that use Highly Complex as a label. It’s a specific word to whittle down the topic even further; C-DID but with more specifiers. For HC-DID, the specifiers are programming and structuring. Every human who experienced programming and lived is a RAMCOA survivor. Not every RAMCOA survivor considers themself a HC-DID system. Some survivors didn’t form systems at all. Others don’t think their system qualifies. Maybe people just don’t want to identify themselves this way. Even if it were a medical diagnosis — it’s not — forcing people to use labels they don’t want is rude at best.

What RAMCOA Is:

RAMCOA stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, Organized Abuse. Surviving any of those is enough to belong in the community.

Ritual Abuse - maltreatment (of anyone) including ceremonies or traditions. It can be anything from religious sacrifice to underage marriage.

Mind Control - manipulation of psychological processes. I genuinely don’t know if there has to be negative intent or a specific plan from the abuser to qualify, but even targeted McDonald’s ads make use of mind control (probably not abusively, I’ve never looked into that).

Organized Abuse - maltreatment that involves multiple perpetrators collaborating in their perpetration. If two people meet at a bar and then hurt a child together, that’s enough. It can be elaborate groups like churches or criminal groups, but the only requirement is more than one perp.

It can be one or a mix of any, but it’s still RAMCOA. Usually, the DID community uses RAMCOA to talk about surviving programming (Trauma-Based Mind Control for the purpose of creating a system), and we label our systems Highly Complex.

Extra Criteria:

To be Highly Complex, survivors are usually closest to C-DID. But wait, there’s more!

HC-DID systems also receive:

Programming - I only know of TBMC being used to split off dissociative alters, but I’d budge on that if someone knew otherwise. Abusers control the child (body) by causing calculated suffering until they get the results they want. Perps split off alters with goals in mind for them, and continue to break them until they fit the desires of the abusers. This control extends to every other aspect of HC-DID, and is the reason another label exists at all.

Layers - different dimensions of innerworld. Sometimes this looks like literal other realms inside, but it could also be like floors of a building or planets or other separate worlds. Layers are often assigned a name or cue that allows outsiders to maneuver a system’s landscape from the external world. Perps don’t go in as much as they bring out, by assigned alter or other cued manipulations.

Subsystems - alters with alters, except also programmed. Cues are assigned to each subsystem alter as well, usually related to the subsystem as a collective. Just like programmed singlet alters, subsystems can be arranged by outsiders for memories, tasks, etc.

Sidesystems - kind of multiple systems within the metasystem. Groups might be contained in a separate innerworld pocket, unwilling to communicate with other alters, or otherwise unreachable in the same way other groups are. These sidesystems usually have a collective task, or function as a whole other system in the body. Details of what they do and why are also conditioned.

Programs - conditioning attached to cues. Programs might force amnesia, give body memories, set off chains of tasks, or any other typical or atypical system capability. Programs might be perceived as wires and buttons, or files, or whatever else programmers decide.

Not all HC-DID systems will have the same level of programming. Not all programmed systems will be more “complex” that other systems. Having a term to describe our unique experiences helps a lot of survivors to feel understood, especially if they’re already open about their past.

RAMCOA survivors are kept in a strange position online and irl. We’re used as examples of “unimaginable trauma” and “extreme abuse”, but are largely told to sit down and shut up; we’re too dangerous to speak up about what was done to us, too unbelievable, or too much at all. Finding help is a nightmare, sucks butt for everyone involved, and is fairly necessary for long term recovery. Like many systems, we beat the odds time and time again to call ourselves “survivors” instead of “victims”. Like many systems, we are rejected by most of society. Unlike most systems, we are a secret within system communities.

Being Complex is not being special, it’s just a haughty way to say there are extra requirements. Recovery for many systems is already a stretch. For HC-DID systems, we are healing the impossible.

“Having DID is rare-“

Ok and being a beekeeper isn’t the most common profession ever but I sure see a lot of them when I search “beekeepers” in online spaces.

MARCH 2022

Read:

Changing Your Mind Can Make You Less Anxious

Life in the Stacks: A Love Letter to Browsing

Excerpt from We Learn Nothing, by Tim Kreider

World wide open (How deep brain stimulation changes a person’s sense of confidence)

How to gain more from your reading

Assertiveness is a virtue that anyone can develop with practice

Lies and honest mistakes

The Pandemic Did Not Affect Mental Health the Way You Think

The invisible addiction: is it time to give up caffeine?

Curiosity Depends on What You Already Know

“Get Me Off Your Fucking Mailing List” is an actual science paper accepted by a journal

Imagine you could insert knowledge into your mind: should you?*

Want to know, even if it hurts? You must be a truth masochist

Mental disorders are brain disorders - here’s why that matters

Forget morality

Unlocking the ‘gut microbiome’ - and its massive significance to our health

Our Little Life Is Rounded with Possibility

In praise of habits - so much more than mindless reflexes

How Social Media Shapes Our Identity

The Forgotten Women of the Antibiotics Race

Diagnosis as Detective Work: Lisa Sanders and the Art of Not Knowing

Do Brain Implants Change Your Identity?

The Promise and the Peril of Virtual Health Care

Adam Savage on Lists, More Lists, and the Power of Checkboxes

What We Get Wrong About Joan Didion

How to find focus

Biotechnology Greed Is Prolonging the Pandemic. It’s Inexcusable.

Why some of the smartest people can be so very stupid

In praise of possibility

Empathy is, at heart, an aesthetic appreciation of the other

‘I Can’t Stop Trying to Be Perfect!’

Reports of a Baleful Internet Are Greatly Exaggerated

How to Unlearn a Disease

Can Reading Make You Happier?

Expert by Roger Kneebone

Watched:

Vaccines & Freedom

Succession - The Toxic Culture of Success

the problem with plastic surgery

L to the OG: How Succession Uses Music**

Peaky Blinders (S6)

Dopesick

Listened To:

I’m still going round the same playlist as last month

Went To:

Life Through A Royal Lens @ Kensington Palace

Swan Lake @ Royal Opera House

Adhd really is like... bedroom is slightly messy it would be nice to tidy it some

bedroom is very messy I really should tidy up

bedroom is chaotic I NEED to tidy but my brain says no. Why. Whyyy.

I guess I’ll just have to watch where I step in here for the rest of my life. The mess is everywhere. I’m one with the mess.

A sudden Need to Clean™ makes you get the room looking like some fancy homes magazine cover, and you think “I’ll never ever let it get that bad again, and then...

bedroom is slightly messy (uh oh)

I would not suggest the deprogrammed wiki, lots of miss information there, but there is some true stuff there too. Just wanted to add that! 

RAMCOA* Resources

Trigger warning: the content on these websites contain discussions of rape, abuse, and trauma-based mind control. PLEASE be careful with yourself, especially if you’re a survivor.

Survive’s page on ritual abuse

General information, does not include information about mind control. Aimed at survivors and allies.

BRISSC’s page on ritual abuse

General information, does not include information about mind control. Aimed at survivors and allies.

RAMCOA Resources Carrd

A very thorough resource on RA and mind control. Contains information on different types of programmed alters and their terms, a general definition of ritual abuse and TBMC, common trigger dates for survivors, and what you can do to help. Aimed at allies. The information here can possibly be triggering if you are a survivor or suspect you are a survivor.

endritualabuse.org

A vast site on ritual abuse and mind control, created by a psychologist who has worked with survivors of RA. Contains information, words from survivors to survivors, and symptom lists of survivors, mostly intended for therapists and professionals. As a survivor, I have found many helpful things for recovery on this site, but please be careful on which articles you read. The information part of this site is very thorough and can possibly be triggering if you are a survivor or suspect you are a survivor.

Deprogram Wiki

This is a site that is a gold mine for information on detecting if someone is a victim of TBMC and programming, the different types of programmed alters, and, specifically for therapists or professionals, how to deprogram someone who has been a victim of RAMCOA. HEAVY TRIGGER WARNING — this site is NOT intended for survivors at all and can be extremely triggering.

*RAMCOA - an acronym that stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

if it’s ok to ask what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture? what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that? is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

Okay so we ended up getting hit by a shit ton of stuff in our life so we've been a bit less active here- sorry it took a while to answer.

First we have another post we have made discussing some of the stuff surrounding TBMC. You can find that post here.

Second, this is a religious sight that is trying to make Christianity more healthy and safe and trauma informed, not fully our cup of tea but it has an interesting page on TBMC here. (Mention it's religious and which religion because it can be triggering)

Now onto us actually answering things ourself.

what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture?

TBMC as we have previously mentioned is known as Trauma Based or Torture Based Mind Control. Childhood torture very often is done for the purpose of mind control, in which case it would fall under TBMC. Most childhood torture is RAMCOA but not all of it falls under TBMC as TBMC is more known as the result rather than the traumatic incidents that it takes to occur the way RAMCOA generally defines the experiences.

TBMC is also not something only children can experience. The experiences of children born into it or raised with it at a young age will be different than an adult introduced to it later in life, but it is still TBMC all the same. There is no cut off age for when torture magically can stop affecting the wiring of your brain. Humans are malleable, and bad people will always know that. Governments will know that too. TBMC is rampant among governmental agencies.

All TBMC is manipulation- but not all manipulation is TBMC. TBMC is done with the goal of rewiring your brain and making you behave in very specific ways. It's meant to make you do things you would not otherwise or believe in things you would not otherwise. It is intrinsically linked to programming. Programming can be done to individual alters (induced by programmers targeting a specific self-state or state of mind or associating certain traumas with specific orders/tasks/etc to make an alter be attached to a specific behavior or task or idea), and system-wide or on the whole of the person (think strong unwavering loyalty common in many cults that refuse all evidence of being in a cult).

Gaslighting might get used within TBMC but it is not inherited to TBMC and by itself would not produce the same effects as TBMC.

what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that?

Oh man this is where it gets very tricky. There is no exact answer to what mind control is as it happens in a variety of different ways. Mind control is basically manipulation of someone's thoughts and behavior that then become intrinsic to the person and last far after they were programmed. It's more than just being made to believe strange things- it's internalizing them to such a degree that they impact your day to day life and view of the world as a whole.

Us being a decade away from the cult and having no reason to go back but having an urge even stronger than our OCD compulsions at times to go back is one type of programming we experience. We also have what presents as agoraphobia- but do not have fear of open spaces and can get groceries fine and go to work and school without issue. This is actually our self-isolation program that tells us when there is no obligation we should never interact with anyone else- there is no reason to. Unless the reason is to proselytize- and since we do not have the faith we once did, that is no longer an option. It's a deeply internalized behavior and belief that sticks even when we logically know it's bad. We are aware it is stupid and unreasonable but we physically cannot break out of it (where we are in recovery currently that is).

It's hard to tell for sure if you have it or not. One thing we had that should have been incredibly fucking obvious to us but wasn't- was that we excused the abuse one of the people in our life put us through as "he was just trying to train us". Never occurred to us that the fact he was "training" us made it worse. It was basically self-defense but not for actual defense type stuff if you catch my drift.

There can also be signs within your behavior. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate OCD and programs as well because some programs can be pushed back on the same way you can with OCD compulsions. However in our case most of our programs are just innate and incredibly difficult to stop ourselves from doing if we can at all. Realizing you have behavior that you struggle to physically stop and have no wish to engage in and do while consciously being aware you do not want to do them and this happens often- was one of the big signs to us. (And again it's a very complex issue because of different mental health concerns that could be tricky.)

is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

We personally consider it to fall under that because more extreme forms of abuse tend to end up with the same issues but there is debate. The most common things people know of that fall under RAMCOA is trafficking and cults.

However if you are trying to determine if something you have already known to experience counts as this term there's a few things you can do.

Does it fall under RA/Ritual abuse? It can hard to tell but I suggest just looking up basic information on what RA is conceptually (if you are in a good mental state and/or have a professional to fall back on and if possible a safety net of friends or family). RA is a very vast concept.

Did you experience TBMC or another form of mind control? If yes then automatically the label applies to you. This also goes for hypnotic mind control and substances used for mind control- as they are also important but less talked about forms of this.

Did you experienced organized abuse? This is a group partaking in abuse towards you. Whether it be mandated or the norm by something like a cult, or a criminal ring, etc. It's a bit hard to get into right now for me.

The only requirements are that you experience RA, MC, or OA. You can experience multiple- RA AND MC for example. Or just one. OA or RA. We struggle mostly with MC as we grew up in a cult that kinda worshipped the leader almost (but nobody would ever admit it even though they quote shit he says online like bible quotes). Which is why we talk about it so much, but it's not necessary to be a RAMCOA survivor.

It's okay to take time to figure out the extent of trauma you might have gone through. It's okay if you fit or don't fit any particular label. All trauma is incredibly important. There just tends to be a lot of subgroups of people with specific experiences because of how it impacts their daily life.

Many well known ramcoa accounts say that MC is always done by two or more people. I think it can be done by one or more. Why do so many people believe it’s done by two or more?

TMBC and programming aren’t the same thing either but many see it as such.

TBMC is a type of programming. There are multiple types of programming including TBMC. so TBMC is programming but not all programming is TBMC

TBMC is torture based mind control and absolutely can be done by just one or two people. It doesnt take more than one person to torture a child. In fact *any* type of programming can be done by one person.

I think where people are getting confused is theyre thinking that only trafficking survivors can have TBMC, which isnt true. It has many different forms and there are thousands of different experiences.

Trafficking is Organized Abuse. All trafficking is Organized abuse. But not all TBMC is organized abuse. Parents are *absolutely* capable of brainwashing their children using torture. Its just not going to be as complex as a trafficking survivors.

I know many large ramcoa creators that agree with me and have educated me on this subject as well as the therapists and psychiatrists that treat RAMCOA survivors that have articles that what do you know, agree with me.

If you look at the definition of trauma based mind control and resources on the subject you will see that in the definition itself there is not a quota on the amount of abusers “necessary” to instill programming.

In this article by Ellen Lacter, there are 12 different kinds of Mind Control, in it she uses the term “abuser or cult” which therefore implies that it absolutely can be done by one person, two people, or an organized ring of people.

End Ritual Abuse

Mind Control: Simple to Complex — End Ritual Abuse

Organizations with a wide range of political and criminal agendas have historically relied on coercive interrogation and brainwashing of var

Complex PTSD (C-PTSD)

Children

The diagnosis of PTSD was originally developed for adults who had suffered from a single-event trauma, such as rape, or a traumatic experience during a war. However, the situation for many children is quite different. Children can suffer chronic trauma such as maltreatment, family violence, and a disruption in attachment to their primary caregiver. In many cases, it is the child’s caregiver who caused the trauma. The diagnosis of PTSD does not take into account how the developmental stages of children may affect their symptoms and how trauma can affect a child’s development.

The term developmental trauma disorder (DTD) has been proposed as the childhood equivalent of C-PTSD. This developmental form of trauma places children at risk for developing psychiatric and medical disorders. Bessel van der Kolk explains DTD as numerous encounters with interpersonal trauma such as physical assault, sexual assault, violence or death. It can also be brought on by subjective events such as betrayal, defeat or shame.

Repeated traumatization during childhood leads to symptoms that differ from those described for PTSD. Cook and others describe symptoms and behavioural characteristics in seven domains:

Attachment – “problems with relationship boundaries, lack of trust, social isolation, difficulty perceiving and responding to others’ emotional states”

Biology – “sensory-motor developmental dysfunction, sensory-integration difficulties, somatization, and increased medical problems”

Affect or emotional regulation – “poor affect regulation, difficulty identifying and expressing emotions and internal states, and difficulties communicating needs, wants, and wishes”

Dissociation – “amnesia, depersonalization, discrete states of consciousness with discrete memories, affect, and functioning, and impaired memory for state-based events”

Behavioural control – “problems with impulse control, aggression, pathological self-soothing, and sleep problems”

Cognition – “difficulty regulating attention, problems with a variety of ’executive functions’ such as planning, judgement, initiation, use of materials, and self-monitoring, difficulty processing new information, difficulty focusing and completing tasks, poor object constancy, problems with ‘cause-effect’ thinking, and language developmental problems such as a gap between receptive and expressive communication abilities.”

Self-concept – “fragmented and disconnected autobiographical narrative, disturbed body image, low self-esteem, excessive shame, and negative internal working models of self”.

Adults

Adults with C-PTSD have sometimes experienced prolonged interpersonal traumatization beginning in childhood, rather than, or as well as, in adulthood. These early injuries interrupt the development of a robust sense of self and of others. Because physical and emotional pain or neglect was often inflicted by attachment figures such as caregivers or older siblings, these individuals may develop a sense that they are fundamentally flawed and that others cannot be relied upon. This can become a pervasive way of relating to others in adult life, described as insecure attachment. This symptom is neither included in the diagnosis of dissociative disorder nor in that of PTSD in the current DSM-5 (2013). Individuals with Complex PTSD also demonstrate lasting personality disturbances with a significant risk of revictimization.

Six clusters of symptoms have been suggested for diagnosis of C-PTSD:

alterations in regulation of affect and impulses;

alterations in attention or consciousness;

alterations in self-perception;

alterations in relations with others;

somatization;

alterations in systems of meaning.

Experiences in these areas may include:

Changes in emotional regulation, including experiences such as persistent dysphoria, chronic suicidal preoccupation, self-injury, explosive or extremely inhibited anger (may alternate), and compulsive or extremely inhibited sexuality (may alternate).

Variations in consciousness, such as amnesia or improved recall for traumatic events, episodes of dissociation, depersonalization/ derealization, and reliving experiences (either in the form of intrusive PTSD symptoms or in ruminative preoccupation).

Changes in self-perception, such as a sense of helplessness or paralysis of initiative, shame, guilt and self-blame, a sense of defilement or stigma, and a sense of being completely different from other human beings (may include a sense of specialness, utter aloneness, a belief that no other person can understand, or a feeling of nonhuman identity).

Varied changes in perception of the perpetrators, such as a preoccupation with the relationship with a perpetrator (including a preoccupation with revenge), an unrealistic attribution of total power to a perpetrator (though the individual’s assessment may be more realistic than the clinician’s), idealization or paradoxical gratitude, a sense of a special or supernatural relationship with a perpetrator, and acceptance of a perpetrator’s belief system or rationalizations.

Alterations in relations with others, such as isolation and withdrawal, disruption in intimate relationships, a repeated search for a rescuer (may alternate with isolation and withdrawal), persistent distrust, and repeated failures of self-protection.

Changes in systems of meaning, such as a loss of sustaining faith and a sense of hopelessness and despair.

What a persecutor is: An alter that harms the system in one way or another. This may be to a specific alter, or to the entire system. This often stems from abuse and/or warped thinking they learned through years of an unhealthy environment.

What a persecutor does not have to be: Aggressive, angry, rude, or violent. Some do act this way, but it is not inherent. Persecutor and rude alter are not synonymous. Keep in mind that while it is very possible for them to act this way, a lot of this can come from being pushed away, insulted, or not listened to, or it may be an unhealthy coping mechanism.

What a persecutor is not: Evil, a parasite, a menace, something to repress, something to try to “lock up” or “get rid of”, the “dark side” of a system, someone who does not deserve to recover, or a lost cause.

We are going to finally go and try to chart out / document our system / known parts for our old/current therapist and since we make a lot of organized sheets and stuff for fun I'm sharing a copy of a template for alter information ^^ Feel free to use / make a copy and use on your own and modify and all.

Its BASK + Extra stuff that we find relevant to our system

Google Docs

Copy For Others

Sheet1 Name:,TEMPLATE Picture / Description / Self Depiction,BEHAVIOR:,Important Notes: AFFECT: SENSORY: KNOWLEDGE: Role:,NOTABLE DYNAMICS