✦ Rainy Day Apartment Details ✦

Me& seeing your latest posts & then realizing we& have a sidesystem: o h.

Bc like, we're& not aware of a lot of the older system members that must've formed earlier in life & any system members who're usually older aren't speaking so I'm& presuming memories are being hidden from me&. I& get like. These flashes of younger child me& dissociating tf out & my& main abuser ( there were multiple perpetrators ) more or less called forth — I& suppose these were introjects fronting or at least co-fronting at the time, I& suspect that if these introjects were programmed it was because I& really liked the characters they were introjected from, I'm& not entirely sure — who'd I'd& thought formed much later in life, among other flashbacks that are just confusing to me&. So like. It's really confusing. Idk hopefully I'm& making sense.

Yeah stuff like this can be super weird to realize. I wouldn't know for sure how your own system would function but that sounds plausible. We also know a lot of other systems who have certain sections of their system have little to no communication with other sections which may also be why you don't see them as speaking- or they're just choosing not to which also happens sometimes. As long as a part was fronting at a specific enough time they may be programmed.

We also had stuff like programmed fragments fuse to be an alter and then said alter who in our case is often an introject- is programmed.

Hi, I noticed your post explaining HC-DID, and I was wondering more about sidesystems? And hoping for some help on how to label ourselves.

With us, we refer to what is basically two systems within the body as a “front system” and “back system”; The front system has had a lot of known alters, within the hundreds, but none of them had any knowledge of any RAMCOA trauma until recently when we discovered what it was, and triggered a lot of programs for ourselves. It was only after this that the back system started actually showing themselves. Their alter count is supposedly incredibly high, divided in a lot of subsystems. We’ve heard things about thousands..? However, our front system does not have thousands. But we feel like we’re equals. We feel weird calling ourselves a sidesystem just because we’re only learning of our RAMCOA trauma now. We’re the system that’s been stuck dealing with everything since then and we are just as important as all of the back system. But, can both of us just consider ourselves two systems within one body and call it a day? Or would that be strange? Any extra information you have on sidesystems and subsystems within HC-DID would also be helpful. We hope to discover other terminology that resonates with us on this subject.

Thanks for your time :)

Honestly terms are just for using at your own discretion. Even if the way you function fits a specific term- you don't have to go along with it. Our what we thought was the "main" system turned out to be what we learned was a side-system. They have decided to use this term themselves but if any of them in it don't use it they'd be allowed to with no worries- just use another term- or not use it at all.

The sidesystem in our own system has been what we were aware of first and more often. We do see our sidesystem as equal to all our programmed/RAMCOA aware (formed in it organically) subsystems. Our main grouping which we consider a sidesystem also has a lot of subsystems within it. Sometimes things can get incredibly complex.

We also eventually found out about our own RAMCOA history because of triggered programs. It was pre-looking into RAMCOA in our case and more so happened because we were digging in our childhood already because of organic alters trauma. I'm sorry you went through all of that- those kind of experiences really suck.

Again you really have no obligation to call anything a sidesystem if you don't want to. Honestly I think the terms you're using as "front and back" can be really fitting and if they work for you? No problem using just that. And honestly yeah- I think it'd be reasonable to view it as just having multiple systems in one body. Hell we sorta do view it in that way ourselves.

As for extra information. I actually kinda want to make a post going over some structures that may show up in HC-DID systems. I think having something we can link back too in the future will be useful. Unsure when that will be out but I will begin working on it today at the very least.

“Having DID is rare-“

Ok and being a beekeeper isn’t the most common profession ever but I sure see a lot of them when I search “beekeepers” in online spaces.

Hand Knitted Crime Scene Caution Tape

Trauma Bonding

Imagine you’re 5’5” standing in a pool that is 3 foot deep. It’s comfortable. The water is the perfect temperature, you can freely roam about playing or relaxing. Imagine that once a month, that pool deepens by 2 centimeters. A centimeter is tiny.. you probably aren’t even aware that your body adjusted to the change. You may have had a moment where things felt odd, but you acclimated.

After a year however, your 9 1/2 inches deeper than when you started. It’s still comfortable. You’re still adequately above water. What about two years? Three? Suddenly you realize your 2 inches over your head. You stand on your toes for a while, you can allow your body to float for a while, but your feet always return to try to find its footing. Now you aren’t focused on carefree frolicking.. now you’re focused on survival. You’re tired. You don’t have the strength anymore to signal for help. Why didn’t you get out of the water sooner? Maybe you deserve being in this water. Wouldn’t a normal person have gotten out long before now? The water use to be so amazing though! It felt like everything you ever wanted. It felt safe and peaceful, sure there were storms, but the waters always calmed eventually. You love this pool.. don’t you? You use to. You needed it. Your body felt like it couldn’t survive without it. Your mind was convinced you would never be the same without it.

Trauma bonding is a lot like this. It is a chemical reaction that occurs just like in any other addiction. Your body craves the relationship just like an alcoholic craves alcohol. Just like someone who suffers from a cutting or eating disorder. Just like anyone addicted to gambling, porn, gaming etc.

If you have ever reached subspace, think about that feeling of euphoria, as well as that crash when it’s over. The crash isn’t fun, but that high feels amazing. The only real difference is that D/s is a healthy relationship where both partners support and care about each other. A narcissist loves seeing you crash and knows the higher they take you, the harder you’ll crash. They know the more highs they give you, the more addicted you’ll become. You aren’t being dramatic when you say you feel like you can’t live without this.. your body believes that based on the chemicals regularly created and depleted in your body. It isn’t your fault. But it doesn’t mean you have to stay in the pool. I know it’s hard. I know you’re tired and I know it feels hopeless. I know you just want to breathe. There is help. There are people nearby with life boats, even if you can’t see them. Please check my tags for advice on how to get out.

A new OSDD/DID combo cheat for terror/panic attack!

- keeping the eyes open to minimize flooding and switching, looking at an object in the room that was gotten in the last calendar year to ground in the present

- heavy stuffy on the chest

- EMDR bilateral music in headphones

- alternate thumbs rubbing on stuffy

- eventually when able to move more, alternate palms rubbing slowly on stuffy's back

- repeating "of course you're scared, that makes total sense, you can be scared right now and we'll hold you" worked for today

- pat the stuffy, soothe the scared part, slow soft pats like on a baby's bum or back to gentle them

- gradually, sit up/change positions and rock and stim to release the rest of the adrenaline/energy

- eventually did a reorienting exercise to ground in the present

The terror ebbed a lot gentler and sooner than I expected! Very proud and grateful. Love having a stuffy with heavy beads in it.

“One of the great tragedies of all forms of abuse is that the abused person can become emotionally dependent on the perpetrator through a process called traumatic bonding. (…) This is a bitter psychological irony. Child abuse works in the same way; in fact, children can become more strongly attached to abusive parents than to nonabusive ones. (…) Almost no abuser is mean or frightening all the time. At least occasionally he is loving, gentle, and humorous and perhaps even capable of compassion and empathy. This intermittent, and usually unpredictable, kindness is critical to forming traumatic attachments. When a person has suffered harsh, painful treatment over an extended period of time, they naturally feel a flood of love and gratitude toward anyone who brings relief, like the surge of affection one might feel for the hand that offers a glass of water on a scorching day. But in situations of abuse, the rescuer and the tormentor are the very same person.”

— Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?, 2002

In one of his books, Kantor offers insight at other facets of AvPD that exist beyond the DSM criteria, that are often overlooked (and aren’t easily explained by other disorders).

On “classic” avoidants (Type I):

“(…) profile of pervasive shyness and fearful isolation. Within this class, variations of severity exist on a continuum. Some of these individuals live by themselves or with their family, either staying at home and not socializing at all, or socializing only with a few selected individuals, attempting to meet people but having difficulty connecting as they try, but fail, to form sustained and sustaining relationships. Others form relationships that are only partially avoidant: limited in degree or of reduced intensity such as bicoastal marriages; serial monogamous relationships; or relationships that are stably unstable, dysfunctional because being with unattainable partners makes the relationships unlikely to come to fruition, or if they do, sooner or later, they are destined to dissolve.”

A fear of flooding and losing control of various impulses due to overstimulation (…) disturbing inner peace (…)

A fear of failure, accompanied by a paradoxical (masochistic) fear of success (…)

Self-criticism due to self-condemnation by a harsh, unforgiving, shaming conscience, causing one to become guilty over legitimate desires and ordinary (but to the avoidant extraordinarily shameful), interpersonal foibles (…)

Relational idealism consisting of a disdain for relationships that appear to be imperfect, originating in excessive expectations of oneself and others (…)

Covalent characterological features, including histrionic (oedipal) rivalry that buries the potential for closeness, intimacy, and commitment under competitive struggles with others—as Gabbard notes, “entailing an aggressive demand for complete attention… associated with a wish to scare away or kill off all rivals… [with the competitiveness] interwoven with a sense of shame” obsessive fretting about the correctness and propriety of one’s interpersonal actions (…) paranoid suspiciousness about the negative things others are, or might be, thinking; depressive alarmism and pessimism that nothing will ever work out as hoped and planned for and the worrisome fear that if all is not already lost, it soon will be; excessive “don’t make waves” passivity, accompanied by a paradoxical fear of passivity and so a need to be on constant alert and continuously active to assure always being in complete control of everything about one’s relationships; extreme dependence possibly leading to a codependent relationship with one person to avoid having to relate to any and all others (…)

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Excessive Defensiveness

Avoidance is not a static, but an active, dynamic condition—what Millon and Davis call an “active detachment,” that is, one with important defensive components. Sullivan describes avoidance as a “somnolent detachment,” the protective dynamism “called out by inescapable and prolonged anxiety.” (…) What is avoided is an allusion either to a temptation for the warded-off drive or to a feared punishment or both.” Therefore some observers, emphasizing how the avoidant inhibits important aspects of living to reduce (social) anxiety, suggest that the term inhibited personality could substitute for the term avoidant personality disorder. Avoidant detachment is made up of the following defenses, among others:

Identification with the aggressor. Avoidants create expected losses actively to handle the possibility of experiencing unexpected losses passively, for example, “I fear your rejecting me” becomes “I reject you to avoid being rejected by you.”

Masochism. Self-sacrificing, self-abnegating, and self-punitive responses are an avoidant’s way to counter forbidden desire. Avoidants commit a kind of social suicide to punish themselves for what they consider to be their unacceptable instinctual urges. They suffer now to avoid suffering even more later.

Repression. Repression is the avoidant’s way to detoxify anxious thoughts and feelings by suppressing them, then acting as if they no longer exist (…)

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Associated Characterological Problems

Obsessionalism. Avoidants are worrisome individuals (…) often rigid, inflexible people who, stuck in routine, have difficulty adapting to unexpected life changes. Also, ambivalent about relationships, instead of settling in to a given relationship, they do and undo it: attempting to relate, becoming anxious, pulling back, then trying again either with the same person or with someone different, ad infinitum (…)

Paranoia. Avoidants are hypervigilant individuals who fear something bad can or will happen to them (…) They take impersonal matters far too personally and see rejections that are not there as a clear and present danger, or actual attack. A difficulty with basic trust leads them to become highly skeptical of everyone, convinced that no one will show them any goodwill whatsoever, and certain that either they will trust everyone and get burned, or trust no one and get dumped (…)

Depression. Avoidants tend to be depressed individuals with intense negative moods (…) They hold the pessimistic view that when it comes to relationships, there is no sense even trying since there is little chance of ever succeeding. Depressive cognitions prevail (…) so that they readily come to believe that any sign of disinterest in them constitutes a turndown, a turndown a rejection, and a rejection an epochal tragedy (…)

And “counterphobic” avoidants (Type II), who are avoidants who unlike the “typical” ones, manage to form connections, albeit in turbulent ways.

Type IIa avoidants can generally maintain superficial, short-lived, relationships with people and the subtype, “mingles”, jump from relationship to relationship unable to settle and not minding quality.

Type IIb avoidants, “seven-year itch”, can form proper bonds with others but for a limited time, because they burn out or become disinterested as time passes.

Type IIc avoidants, have severe codependency tendencies.

Complex PTSD (C-PTSD)

Children

The diagnosis of PTSD was originally developed for adults who had suffered from a single-event trauma, such as rape, or a traumatic experience during a war. However, the situation for many children is quite different. Children can suffer chronic trauma such as maltreatment, family violence, and a disruption in attachment to their primary caregiver. In many cases, it is the child’s caregiver who caused the trauma. The diagnosis of PTSD does not take into account how the developmental stages of children may affect their symptoms and how trauma can affect a child’s development.

The term developmental trauma disorder (DTD) has been proposed as the childhood equivalent of C-PTSD. This developmental form of trauma places children at risk for developing psychiatric and medical disorders. Bessel van der Kolk explains DTD as numerous encounters with interpersonal trauma such as physical assault, sexual assault, violence or death. It can also be brought on by subjective events such as betrayal, defeat or shame.

Repeated traumatization during childhood leads to symptoms that differ from those described for PTSD. Cook and others describe symptoms and behavioural characteristics in seven domains:

Attachment – “problems with relationship boundaries, lack of trust, social isolation, difficulty perceiving and responding to others’ emotional states”

Biology – “sensory-motor developmental dysfunction, sensory-integration difficulties, somatization, and increased medical problems”

Affect or emotional regulation – “poor affect regulation, difficulty identifying and expressing emotions and internal states, and difficulties communicating needs, wants, and wishes”

Dissociation – “amnesia, depersonalization, discrete states of consciousness with discrete memories, affect, and functioning, and impaired memory for state-based events”

Behavioural control – “problems with impulse control, aggression, pathological self-soothing, and sleep problems”

Cognition – “difficulty regulating attention, problems with a variety of ’executive functions’ such as planning, judgement, initiation, use of materials, and self-monitoring, difficulty processing new information, difficulty focusing and completing tasks, poor object constancy, problems with ‘cause-effect’ thinking, and language developmental problems such as a gap between receptive and expressive communication abilities.”

Self-concept – “fragmented and disconnected autobiographical narrative, disturbed body image, low self-esteem, excessive shame, and negative internal working models of self”.

Adults

Adults with C-PTSD have sometimes experienced prolonged interpersonal traumatization beginning in childhood, rather than, or as well as, in adulthood. These early injuries interrupt the development of a robust sense of self and of others. Because physical and emotional pain or neglect was often inflicted by attachment figures such as caregivers or older siblings, these individuals may develop a sense that they are fundamentally flawed and that others cannot be relied upon. This can become a pervasive way of relating to others in adult life, described as insecure attachment. This symptom is neither included in the diagnosis of dissociative disorder nor in that of PTSD in the current DSM-5 (2013). Individuals with Complex PTSD also demonstrate lasting personality disturbances with a significant risk of revictimization.

Six clusters of symptoms have been suggested for diagnosis of C-PTSD:

alterations in regulation of affect and impulses;

alterations in attention or consciousness;

alterations in self-perception;

alterations in relations with others;

somatization;

alterations in systems of meaning.

Experiences in these areas may include:

Changes in emotional regulation, including experiences such as persistent dysphoria, chronic suicidal preoccupation, self-injury, explosive or extremely inhibited anger (may alternate), and compulsive or extremely inhibited sexuality (may alternate).

Variations in consciousness, such as amnesia or improved recall for traumatic events, episodes of dissociation, depersonalization/ derealization, and reliving experiences (either in the form of intrusive PTSD symptoms or in ruminative preoccupation).

Changes in self-perception, such as a sense of helplessness or paralysis of initiative, shame, guilt and self-blame, a sense of defilement or stigma, and a sense of being completely different from other human beings (may include a sense of specialness, utter aloneness, a belief that no other person can understand, or a feeling of nonhuman identity).

Varied changes in perception of the perpetrators, such as a preoccupation with the relationship with a perpetrator (including a preoccupation with revenge), an unrealistic attribution of total power to a perpetrator (though the individual’s assessment may be more realistic than the clinician’s), idealization or paradoxical gratitude, a sense of a special or supernatural relationship with a perpetrator, and acceptance of a perpetrator’s belief system or rationalizations.

Alterations in relations with others, such as isolation and withdrawal, disruption in intimate relationships, a repeated search for a rescuer (may alternate with isolation and withdrawal), persistent distrust, and repeated failures of self-protection.

Changes in systems of meaning, such as a loss of sustaining faith and a sense of hopelessness and despair.

Everyday, I lose a little bit more faith with how people treat RAMCOA survivors. We're either treated as too much or some circus entertainment, and it's not even always by singlets either.

(Deimos had started answering this last night but apparently got distracted and did not finish. So I will post what he said, as I think he worded it well. Also, interesting how you worded this, as we have a poem talking about this very subject of being seen as a walking freak show/circus side show. -Dorian)

There is not anything I could add to this ask to make it more or less true, as you are absolutely correct. Like our abusers, they do not see us as people. As survivors, we are continually dehumanized just as we were back then. They will never see us as people. We have never been human to them.

-Deimos, the alter who quite literally started wearing a tiger mask after the main character in the book “No Longer Human” by Junji Ito/Dazai because he has never once felt like a person or understood humanity.