Latest Posts by over-by-the-fishtank - Page 3

As a RAMCOA survivor I don't feel safe in the CDD community or the plural community. Both sides villainize us while also doing performative allyship and pretending to care about survivors. We're evil if we come forward and save our childhood friends and loved ones. We're evil if we share information to help survivors know why they're experiencing what they're experiencing. Our therapist is supposed to magically figure out what exact symptoms were experiencing without us ever voicing anything because we don't have the language to explain it. We're always told to shut up and be quiet and then non-survivors get to walk all over us and speak for us without ever considering that maybe it's not their place to EVER get involved in any form of discourse around what we can do or not. Quite literally this is a case of oppressors speaking for those they oppress. Broader society also wants us to be silent because we're seen as too depressing. Too much. It's seen as normal and okay to encourage survivors to let their programming fully take them other as long as it's not the ones that hurt others or dares to make people see scars on you. Then that's a problem but people like us should just disappear and stay silent like our programmers wanted. That's the message that is given so often when people talk about us. The other message is we would be better off dead than dare speak.

Definition of Polyfragmented (in DID)

Dictionary definition: Poly = A prefix meaning “many, Fragmented = adjective. reduced to fragments. existing or functioning as though broken into separate parts; disorganized; disunified

Polyfragmentation is unusual in that there is no actual definition for the term. There are many definitions out there, but no definition is agreed upon by a majority either within academic realms or socially.

We see this sometimes with other DID/OSDD terms such as “integration” being used to mean two (almost opposite) things.

With polyfragmentation there are many different definitions, with some focusing on number of parts, some on internal system structure, etc. But even those who insist that the definition revolves around numerical value (the number of alters/parts), there is no accepted and agreed upon number. And so, we will look at the possible definitions, socially vs scientifically/medically.

Keep reading

MARCH 2022

Read:

Changing Your Mind Can Make You Less Anxious

Life in the Stacks: A Love Letter to Browsing

Excerpt from We Learn Nothing, by Tim Kreider

World wide open (How deep brain stimulation changes a person’s sense of confidence)

How to gain more from your reading

Assertiveness is a virtue that anyone can develop with practice

Lies and honest mistakes

The Pandemic Did Not Affect Mental Health the Way You Think

The invisible addiction: is it time to give up caffeine?

Curiosity Depends on What You Already Know

“Get Me Off Your Fucking Mailing List” is an actual science paper accepted by a journal

Imagine you could insert knowledge into your mind: should you?*

Want to know, even if it hurts? You must be a truth masochist

Mental disorders are brain disorders - here’s why that matters

Forget morality

Unlocking the ‘gut microbiome’ - and its massive significance to our health

Our Little Life Is Rounded with Possibility

In praise of habits - so much more than mindless reflexes

How Social Media Shapes Our Identity

The Forgotten Women of the Antibiotics Race

Diagnosis as Detective Work: Lisa Sanders and the Art of Not Knowing

Do Brain Implants Change Your Identity?

The Promise and the Peril of Virtual Health Care

Adam Savage on Lists, More Lists, and the Power of Checkboxes

What We Get Wrong About Joan Didion

How to find focus

Biotechnology Greed Is Prolonging the Pandemic. It’s Inexcusable.

Why some of the smartest people can be so very stupid

In praise of possibility

Empathy is, at heart, an aesthetic appreciation of the other

‘I Can’t Stop Trying to Be Perfect!’

Reports of a Baleful Internet Are Greatly Exaggerated

How to Unlearn a Disease

Can Reading Make You Happier?

Expert by Roger Kneebone

Watched:

Vaccines & Freedom

Succession - The Toxic Culture of Success

the problem with plastic surgery

L to the OG: How Succession Uses Music**

Peaky Blinders (S6)

Dopesick

Listened To:

I’m still going round the same playlist as last month

Went To:

Life Through A Royal Lens @ Kensington Palace

Swan Lake @ Royal Opera House

In one of his books, Kantor offers insight at other facets of AvPD that exist beyond the DSM criteria, that are often overlooked (and aren’t easily explained by other disorders).

On “classic” avoidants (Type I):

“(…) profile of pervasive shyness and fearful isolation. Within this class, variations of severity exist on a continuum. Some of these individuals live by themselves or with their family, either staying at home and not socializing at all, or socializing only with a few selected individuals, attempting to meet people but having difficulty connecting as they try, but fail, to form sustained and sustaining relationships. Others form relationships that are only partially avoidant: limited in degree or of reduced intensity such as bicoastal marriages; serial monogamous relationships; or relationships that are stably unstable, dysfunctional because being with unattainable partners makes the relationships unlikely to come to fruition, or if they do, sooner or later, they are destined to dissolve.”

A fear of flooding and losing control of various impulses due to overstimulation (…) disturbing inner peace (…)

A fear of failure, accompanied by a paradoxical (masochistic) fear of success (…)

Self-criticism due to self-condemnation by a harsh, unforgiving, shaming conscience, causing one to become guilty over legitimate desires and ordinary (but to the avoidant extraordinarily shameful), interpersonal foibles (…)

Relational idealism consisting of a disdain for relationships that appear to be imperfect, originating in excessive expectations of oneself and others (…)

Covalent characterological features, including histrionic (oedipal) rivalry that buries the potential for closeness, intimacy, and commitment under competitive struggles with others—as Gabbard notes, “entailing an aggressive demand for complete attention… associated with a wish to scare away or kill off all rivals… [with the competitiveness] interwoven with a sense of shame” obsessive fretting about the correctness and propriety of one’s interpersonal actions (…) paranoid suspiciousness about the negative things others are, or might be, thinking; depressive alarmism and pessimism that nothing will ever work out as hoped and planned for and the worrisome fear that if all is not already lost, it soon will be; excessive “don’t make waves” passivity, accompanied by a paradoxical fear of passivity and so a need to be on constant alert and continuously active to assure always being in complete control of everything about one’s relationships; extreme dependence possibly leading to a codependent relationship with one person to avoid having to relate to any and all others (…)

-

Excessive Defensiveness

Avoidance is not a static, but an active, dynamic condition—what Millon and Davis call an “active detachment,” that is, one with important defensive components. Sullivan describes avoidance as a “somnolent detachment,” the protective dynamism “called out by inescapable and prolonged anxiety.” (…) What is avoided is an allusion either to a temptation for the warded-off drive or to a feared punishment or both.” Therefore some observers, emphasizing how the avoidant inhibits important aspects of living to reduce (social) anxiety, suggest that the term inhibited personality could substitute for the term avoidant personality disorder. Avoidant detachment is made up of the following defenses, among others:

Identification with the aggressor. Avoidants create expected losses actively to handle the possibility of experiencing unexpected losses passively, for example, “I fear your rejecting me” becomes “I reject you to avoid being rejected by you.”

Masochism. Self-sacrificing, self-abnegating, and self-punitive responses are an avoidant’s way to counter forbidden desire. Avoidants commit a kind of social suicide to punish themselves for what they consider to be their unacceptable instinctual urges. They suffer now to avoid suffering even more later.

Repression. Repression is the avoidant’s way to detoxify anxious thoughts and feelings by suppressing them, then acting as if they no longer exist (…)

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Associated Characterological Problems

Obsessionalism. Avoidants are worrisome individuals (…) often rigid, inflexible people who, stuck in routine, have difficulty adapting to unexpected life changes. Also, ambivalent about relationships, instead of settling in to a given relationship, they do and undo it: attempting to relate, becoming anxious, pulling back, then trying again either with the same person or with someone different, ad infinitum (…)

Paranoia. Avoidants are hypervigilant individuals who fear something bad can or will happen to them (…) They take impersonal matters far too personally and see rejections that are not there as a clear and present danger, or actual attack. A difficulty with basic trust leads them to become highly skeptical of everyone, convinced that no one will show them any goodwill whatsoever, and certain that either they will trust everyone and get burned, or trust no one and get dumped (…)

Depression. Avoidants tend to be depressed individuals with intense negative moods (…) They hold the pessimistic view that when it comes to relationships, there is no sense even trying since there is little chance of ever succeeding. Depressive cognitions prevail (…) so that they readily come to believe that any sign of disinterest in them constitutes a turndown, a turndown a rejection, and a rejection an epochal tragedy (…)

And “counterphobic” avoidants (Type II), who are avoidants who unlike the “typical” ones, manage to form connections, albeit in turbulent ways.

Type IIa avoidants can generally maintain superficial, short-lived, relationships with people and the subtype, “mingles”, jump from relationship to relationship unable to settle and not minding quality.

Type IIb avoidants, “seven-year itch”, can form proper bonds with others but for a limited time, because they burn out or become disinterested as time passes.

Type IIc avoidants, have severe codependency tendencies.

Other Personality Disorders

This post is about personality disorders that used to exist in the DSM or ICD but don’t anymore. You cannot be diagnosed with these disorders, as they’re not in any diagnostic manual; you would be diagnosed with Other Specified Personality Disorder (or the ICD-11 equivalent) instead.

Passive-Aggressive / Negativistic (PA/NegPD)

A pervasive pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for adequate performance, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Masochistic / Self-Defeating (Ma/SDPD)

A pervasive pattern of self-defeating behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts. The person may often avoid or undermine pleasurable experiences, be drawn to situations or relationships in which he or she will suffer, and prevent others from helping him or her.

Sadistic (SaPD)

A pervasive pattern of cruel, demeaning, and aggressive behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Depressive / Melancholic (De/MePD)

A pervasive pattern of depressive cognitions and behaviors, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Other Personality Disorders

Turbulent

Turbulent PD has never existed in any DSM. It’s part of Millon’s theorised personality disorder taxonomy, but doesn’t appear in any other literature.

It seems to be an alternate way of categorising and defining hypomania & cyclothymic disorder, and is similar to ADHD, NPD & HPD.

Millon classes it on a spectrum from ebullient personality type -> exuberant personality style -> turbulent personality disorder.

Haltlose

Theorised in German, Russian, and French psychiatry.

Haltlose translates to “unstable” (literally, “without footing”) and refers to a “drifting, aimless and irresponsible lifestyle: a translation might be ‘lacking a hold' on life or onto the self)”.

“Those with haltlose personality disorder have features of frontal lobe syndrome, sociopathic and histrionic personality traits”.

Someone with haltlose PD “lacks concentration and persistence”, and “lives in the present only”. They are “easily persuaded, and [are] often led astray”.

Haltlose PD is similar to AsPD as there is “an inability to learn from experience, and no sincere sense of remorse”. They are often described as ‘lovable rouges’.

(Cullivan, R, ‘‘Haltlose’ type personality disorder (ICD-10 F60.8)’, Psychiatric Bulletin, 1998, pp. 58-59).

Immature

Immature PD was mentioned in the DSM-III as a specifier for Other Specified PD, but removed in later editions.

It seems to be a combination of borderline, histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial, dependent, schizoid and avoidant PDs.

Almeida et al. suggest the following criteria for Immature PD: irresponsibility; impulsivity; unreliability; easily swayed; mood swings; expect overindulgence from others; dependency on others; ability for remorse or regret but it’s “light and fleeting”; inability to manage assets; inability to follow plans; quick to lie; unable to delay gratification; quick to frustration; devaluation of others; risk-taking behaviour; unstable relationships and behaviour; feels both entitled and worthless; attention seeking; recklessness; shyness; ungrateful; over-familiar with others; unable to plan for the future; substance use.

They also suggest 3 subtypes of Immature PD: the dramatic and emotional subtype, the shy subtype, and the mixed subtype.

(Almeida et al., 'Immature Personality Disorder: Contribution to the Definition of this Personality', Clinical Neuroscience & Neurological Research, 2019, pp. 1-16).

Eccentric and Psychoneurotic

These two personality disorders existed only as ‘other specified’ PDs in the ICD-10, where no definition is given.

I lost the posts we wanted to respond to, but I think I remember what we were gonna say

🗝️🏷️ RAMCOA with vague examples, syscourse?

Highly Complex DID

What “Complex” Means:

From what we’ve read, it seems like Complex refers to the specific disorder’s criteria. C-PTSD is PTSD with a different presentation; in this case, multiple/prolonged trauma causes difficulty tracing symptoms in the same ways as other PTSD cases. C-DID is DID with a different presentation; here it’s more intricate mechanisms that lead treatment down another path. Even CDD, which is dissociation into self-states instead of one dissociating self-state. The C just means that thing, plus some extra. There are going to be cases where a Complex patient is actually more simple to care for than a non-Complex patient — it’s just a matter of narrowing it down with more criteria.

Highly Complex:

As far as I know, there are no other communities that use Highly Complex as a label. It’s a specific word to whittle down the topic even further; C-DID but with more specifiers. For HC-DID, the specifiers are programming and structuring. Every human who experienced programming and lived is a RAMCOA survivor. Not every RAMCOA survivor considers themself a HC-DID system. Some survivors didn’t form systems at all. Others don’t think their system qualifies. Maybe people just don’t want to identify themselves this way. Even if it were a medical diagnosis — it’s not — forcing people to use labels they don’t want is rude at best.

What RAMCOA Is:

RAMCOA stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, Organized Abuse. Surviving any of those is enough to belong in the community.

Ritual Abuse - maltreatment (of anyone) including ceremonies or traditions. It can be anything from religious sacrifice to underage marriage.

Mind Control - manipulation of psychological processes. I genuinely don’t know if there has to be negative intent or a specific plan from the abuser to qualify, but even targeted McDonald’s ads make use of mind control (probably not abusively, I’ve never looked into that).

Organized Abuse - maltreatment that involves multiple perpetrators collaborating in their perpetration. If two people meet at a bar and then hurt a child together, that’s enough. It can be elaborate groups like churches or criminal groups, but the only requirement is more than one perp.

It can be one or a mix of any, but it’s still RAMCOA. Usually, the DID community uses RAMCOA to talk about surviving programming (Trauma-Based Mind Control for the purpose of creating a system), and we label our systems Highly Complex.

Extra Criteria:

To be Highly Complex, survivors are usually closest to C-DID. But wait, there’s more!

HC-DID systems also receive:

Programming - I only know of TBMC being used to split off dissociative alters, but I’d budge on that if someone knew otherwise. Abusers control the child (body) by causing calculated suffering until they get the results they want. Perps split off alters with goals in mind for them, and continue to break them until they fit the desires of the abusers. This control extends to every other aspect of HC-DID, and is the reason another label exists at all.

Layers - different dimensions of innerworld. Sometimes this looks like literal other realms inside, but it could also be like floors of a building or planets or other separate worlds. Layers are often assigned a name or cue that allows outsiders to maneuver a system’s landscape from the external world. Perps don’t go in as much as they bring out, by assigned alter or other cued manipulations.

Subsystems - alters with alters, except also programmed. Cues are assigned to each subsystem alter as well, usually related to the subsystem as a collective. Just like programmed singlet alters, subsystems can be arranged by outsiders for memories, tasks, etc.

Sidesystems - kind of multiple systems within the metasystem. Groups might be contained in a separate innerworld pocket, unwilling to communicate with other alters, or otherwise unreachable in the same way other groups are. These sidesystems usually have a collective task, or function as a whole other system in the body. Details of what they do and why are also conditioned.

Programs - conditioning attached to cues. Programs might force amnesia, give body memories, set off chains of tasks, or any other typical or atypical system capability. Programs might be perceived as wires and buttons, or files, or whatever else programmers decide.

Not all HC-DID systems will have the same level of programming. Not all programmed systems will be more “complex” that other systems. Having a term to describe our unique experiences helps a lot of survivors to feel understood, especially if they’re already open about their past.

RAMCOA survivors are kept in a strange position online and irl. We’re used as examples of “unimaginable trauma” and “extreme abuse”, but are largely told to sit down and shut up; we’re too dangerous to speak up about what was done to us, too unbelievable, or too much at all. Finding help is a nightmare, sucks butt for everyone involved, and is fairly necessary for long term recovery. Like many systems, we beat the odds time and time again to call ourselves “survivors” instead of “victims”. Like many systems, we are rejected by most of society. Unlike most systems, we are a secret within system communities.

Being Complex is not being special, it’s just a haughty way to say there are extra requirements. Recovery for many systems is already a stretch. For HC-DID systems, we are healing the impossible.

hi! do u know anything about the term “childhood torture” vs general childhood abuse manipulation and gaslighting… and mind control vs manipulation and gaslighting? some people also say though who go through childhood torture are also automatic ramcoa victims but I’m unsure abt that? if it’s done by a family and not an organization would it still be ramcoa? or what exactly is sadistic or severe abuse vs regular abuse.. bc I see a lot of people specifying ramcoa as the most severe abuse or talking about “severe abuse/trauma” vs regular abuse ..

To be honest I do not think RA/OA is the "most severe abuse" nor do I think it is particularly conducive to rank abuse on that kind of scale. Yes some stuff is objectively pretty bad but I think framing RAMCOA as "the most severe" is the exact reason that so many people are suspecting they have RA or polyfragmentation: because they think that it would HAVE to be really bad if they are experiencing the things they are, when in reality whatever it is they experienced was clearly already really bad. (And since we're on this topic, being triggered by RAMCOA or other forms of extreme abuse does not mean you are a survivor. Even nonsurvivors get triggered by this)

Also again RAMCOA is not all equivalent. A trafficking survivor will not have the same experiences as a child soldier nor are their experiences now somehow equivalent. If we insist on using a scale like this then I would say if you are alive you have not experienced the worst thing, because most "worst things" to experience will kill you.

"Childhood torture" is not really a specific term, it is just a type of experience, similar to 'sexual abuse' or 'physical abuse'. It is torture you experienced in childhood, with no other requirements.

Torture can sometimes be conducted by a single individual, though it is difficult and will not be effective for any sort of psychological control. Torture conducted this way is not for any end goal but for the perpetrator's emotional release. So not every torture survivor is a RAMCOA survivor. Most of the time, torture does have an organized abuse component, for various reasons but the most glaring one being the amount of resources required to torture a person without anyone else finding out, which is why many torture survivors are RAMCOA survivors. Torture typically has both a physical and psychological component. Gaslighting is not torture. Manipulation is not torture. Gaslighting and manipulation can be a part of torture but there is kind of a big difference between something like waterboarding versus gaslighting. Legally, torture is very loosely defined but this is more due to the wide variety of methods people come up with in torture that courts want to be able to define as torture, not that torture is itself vague or difficult to differentiate. For example, forcing people to drink until they get water poisoning and slowly die is a documented form of torture. Which is a really weird thing to do and probably not something a court could come up with listing if they wanted to do a list of actions that qualify as torture. An example of psychological torture would be being forced to watch or participate in someone you love being tortured or killed.

The term severe sadistic abuse is really hard because it IS vague but there is not really a good way to term it without getting into details that can be triggering. Severe sadistic abuse in academic writings includes torture and terrorism survivors, and frequently cites the Holocaust as an example. If that gives you a good baseline idea of what the line is. I think when discussing academic terms it is important to remember that terms are created because they serve a function. If severe sadistic abuse was equivalent to gaslighting, manipulation, they would not have created the term because both emotional and psychological abuse already exist as terms. For example, gaslighting is only a term because it is not just lying but an explicit and intentional attempt to manipulate someone's perception of themselves and their reality and make them reliant on an abuser to tell what is true or not. If "lying" or "manipulation" fit then there would be no need for the term.

why do people say programming doesn’t exist and that it must be false memories? /gen

Lots of reasons.

Most people don't like to think about other people getting hurt. They also especially do not like to think that children are being hurt. And even more they do not like to think that child abuse is occurring while someone else who could have stopped it was there. This is why when child abuse survivors of any kind tell family members/friends who weren't abusive that so and so abused them, the immediate reaction is typically denial. Whether they accept it later on or not, the initial reaction is usually defense and denial. Even when they do accept it there is often a degree of "how could I have missed that" that these individuals express either to the survivor or to their own friends. People want to keep and uphold the view that most people around them are good. The concept of "groups of people who all decided to abuse children together" is contradictory to that worldview so they discard it, but if you ask them about specific things like child soldiers and trafficking that they have probably heard of (and also probably associate with Poor Uncivilized Third World Countries(tm) instead of happening in their own countries), they will usually say that's real.

Another reason is that most peoples' idea of programming is from media, mostly revolving around like...super powers or a person becoming basically a robot or they think it's all like cults in the woods or whatever. They think TBMC is some sci-fi thing, they don't know what it looks like, and they aren't thinking about the abuse part. And I do think that it kind of sucks that MC is the term because it does sound like some sci-fi/dystopian thing just from the name. It sounds very silly if you don't know much about it. In reality it is pretty boringly based in psychological responses to torture.

Another reason is that FMSF was very successful in their smear campaign despite being made up nearly entirely of parents who had gotten successfully sued for child abuse by their children. The fact that academics even marginally acknowledged them was a mistake IMO. Not to say that I'm not like the other girls but if a group of parents like this started making shit up around me I would simply roll my eyes and ignore them. Unfortunately, psychiatric abuse exists and the famous ones kind of screwed everybody else. Most famous one being Sybil. Instead of getting mad at psychiatric abuse occurring it became a focus on how DID itself is fake and abuse memories a person has discussed in therapy is therefore also fake.

Another is a community issue. There are individuals who saw RA survivors getting attention from court cases and decided that they would Also like to get attention and would make up stories which would eventually get debunked OR they sounded so fictional (because they were) that most people then assumed that all RA survivors were like that. There were and still are also survivors who were so desperate to be believed that they would tell their stories in great detail--except their stories usually also included lies that their groups told them which discredited them. Most of these are lies that the average person would find ridiculous and factually incorrect and so nobody would believe the rest of what they were saying.

Lastly, many RAMCOA survivors are simply not palatable. A lot of us are not the cutesy socially acceptable kind of survivors that people feel pity for and want to give a blanket. Many RAMCOA survivors especially when they first get out or first start processing this are aggressive, lash out, behave erratically, make no sense to anyone, have no/low empathy, say very socially inappropriate things, etc. This goes double if isolation from the rest of the world was a big part of the abuse. And to be clear I do not mean like...ghosts their friends or is a little snarky or has a breakdown sometimes in a cute little corner with quiet little sobs. I mean shit that you would get shunned by polite society and get the cops called on you for. The ones that don't escape (either stayed in or the group dissolved/faded over time) tend to be more stable appearing than escapees but they're still not the type of survivor people care about.

if it’s ok to ask what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture? what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that? is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

Okay so we ended up getting hit by a shit ton of stuff in our life so we've been a bit less active here- sorry it took a while to answer.

First we have another post we have made discussing some of the stuff surrounding TBMC. You can find that post here.

Second, this is a religious sight that is trying to make Christianity more healthy and safe and trauma informed, not fully our cup of tea but it has an interesting page on TBMC here. (Mention it's religious and which religion because it can be triggering)

Now onto us actually answering things ourself.

what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture?

TBMC as we have previously mentioned is known as Trauma Based or Torture Based Mind Control. Childhood torture very often is done for the purpose of mind control, in which case it would fall under TBMC. Most childhood torture is RAMCOA but not all of it falls under TBMC as TBMC is more known as the result rather than the traumatic incidents that it takes to occur the way RAMCOA generally defines the experiences.

TBMC is also not something only children can experience. The experiences of children born into it or raised with it at a young age will be different than an adult introduced to it later in life, but it is still TBMC all the same. There is no cut off age for when torture magically can stop affecting the wiring of your brain. Humans are malleable, and bad people will always know that. Governments will know that too. TBMC is rampant among governmental agencies.

All TBMC is manipulation- but not all manipulation is TBMC. TBMC is done with the goal of rewiring your brain and making you behave in very specific ways. It's meant to make you do things you would not otherwise or believe in things you would not otherwise. It is intrinsically linked to programming. Programming can be done to individual alters (induced by programmers targeting a specific self-state or state of mind or associating certain traumas with specific orders/tasks/etc to make an alter be attached to a specific behavior or task or idea), and system-wide or on the whole of the person (think strong unwavering loyalty common in many cults that refuse all evidence of being in a cult).

Gaslighting might get used within TBMC but it is not inherited to TBMC and by itself would not produce the same effects as TBMC.

what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that?

Oh man this is where it gets very tricky. There is no exact answer to what mind control is as it happens in a variety of different ways. Mind control is basically manipulation of someone's thoughts and behavior that then become intrinsic to the person and last far after they were programmed. It's more than just being made to believe strange things- it's internalizing them to such a degree that they impact your day to day life and view of the world as a whole.

Us being a decade away from the cult and having no reason to go back but having an urge even stronger than our OCD compulsions at times to go back is one type of programming we experience. We also have what presents as agoraphobia- but do not have fear of open spaces and can get groceries fine and go to work and school without issue. This is actually our self-isolation program that tells us when there is no obligation we should never interact with anyone else- there is no reason to. Unless the reason is to proselytize- and since we do not have the faith we once did, that is no longer an option. It's a deeply internalized behavior and belief that sticks even when we logically know it's bad. We are aware it is stupid and unreasonable but we physically cannot break out of it (where we are in recovery currently that is).

It's hard to tell for sure if you have it or not. One thing we had that should have been incredibly fucking obvious to us but wasn't- was that we excused the abuse one of the people in our life put us through as "he was just trying to train us". Never occurred to us that the fact he was "training" us made it worse. It was basically self-defense but not for actual defense type stuff if you catch my drift.

There can also be signs within your behavior. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate OCD and programs as well because some programs can be pushed back on the same way you can with OCD compulsions. However in our case most of our programs are just innate and incredibly difficult to stop ourselves from doing if we can at all. Realizing you have behavior that you struggle to physically stop and have no wish to engage in and do while consciously being aware you do not want to do them and this happens often- was one of the big signs to us. (And again it's a very complex issue because of different mental health concerns that could be tricky.)

is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

We personally consider it to fall under that because more extreme forms of abuse tend to end up with the same issues but there is debate. The most common things people know of that fall under RAMCOA is trafficking and cults.

However if you are trying to determine if something you have already known to experience counts as this term there's a few things you can do.

Does it fall under RA/Ritual abuse? It can hard to tell but I suggest just looking up basic information on what RA is conceptually (if you are in a good mental state and/or have a professional to fall back on and if possible a safety net of friends or family). RA is a very vast concept.

Did you experience TBMC or another form of mind control? If yes then automatically the label applies to you. This also goes for hypnotic mind control and substances used for mind control- as they are also important but less talked about forms of this.

Did you experienced organized abuse? This is a group partaking in abuse towards you. Whether it be mandated or the norm by something like a cult, or a criminal ring, etc. It's a bit hard to get into right now for me.

The only requirements are that you experience RA, MC, or OA. You can experience multiple- RA AND MC for example. Or just one. OA or RA. We struggle mostly with MC as we grew up in a cult that kinda worshipped the leader almost (but nobody would ever admit it even though they quote shit he says online like bible quotes). Which is why we talk about it so much, but it's not necessary to be a RAMCOA survivor.

It's okay to take time to figure out the extent of trauma you might have gone through. It's okay if you fit or don't fit any particular label. All trauma is incredibly important. There just tends to be a lot of subgroups of people with specific experiences because of how it impacts their daily life.

Something I've noticed is how some CDD systems (and general trauma survivors) sometimes treat "extreme" trauma like a fictional concept when trying to valid themselves. I understand where "you don't need to go through RAMCOA abuse/a war/a dictatorship/etc to be a system and have cptsd" comes from and I fully agree with it. Some shitty ableist singlets can be very annoying with how they only accept trauma when it's "extreme" trauma. But I think the way some people talk about it sometimes just makes it sound off. I don't know it's just the way some people phrase it like "Not everyone traumatised is living in a war zone 🙄" makes me really uncomfortable. Like it's not the faults of people who have gone through "extreme" trauma that some people are ableist and uneducated

Also, people who go through those do exist? Like idk most people I see talk about it like it's some far-off vague fictional out-there concept and not like, a thing that real people experience and go through? Like RAMCOA abuse is real and valid (I'm not a survivor myself so I won't talk about it a lot but I felt the need to bring it up because the way some people talk about it is just weird), people who have lived through wars exist? and their trauma is valid, people who have been trafficked exist and their trauma is valid, people who have been tortured exist and their trauma is valid, people who have survived genocides exist and their trauma is valid, and people who have been in cults exist and their trauma is valid. In general, people with "extreme" trauma exist and their trauma is real

Survivors of "extreme" abuse/trauma shouldn't be made to feel like their trauma is too taboo to mention. Or feel like they can't talk about it out of fear of "invalidating other systems". All trauma is valid (including "non extreme" trauma). I think validating traumatic things that aren't usually viewed as trauma by the average person is good but please try not to bring down anyone else in the process

Cult Survivor Resources

Because we have seen and been given almost no cult survivor resources whatsoever by others and have in fact been discouraged from getting help (yes shockingly enough the idea that deprogrammers should not be talked to seem to be a pressure from those whoa are so called allies to victims of cults), we have decided to make our own resources document.

Google Docs

Cult Recovery Resources

Read Before You Research This document is a series of sources compiled by a cult survivor with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). This m

This is something we will keep updating as time goes on. We find resources like this to be very important especially our inclusion of dates that could cause discomfort, and why they are, as well as support group information and information on cult mind control. We are sick and tired of people telling us that it is bad to get help especially within the system community. No other space ever has treated us so strangely for our background.

Does McLean Hospital Have Ties To MK Ultra?

Claims made, the evidence, the known facts, and the falsehoods.

CW/Brief: This talks about a government ran mind control project that took place in 1953-1973. Claims recently have resurfaced as a reaction to a contentious video that was released. This video was greatly contested by people with DID and professionals in psychiatry and psychology alike for it's poor handling of subject material and violation of ethics. This will not go fully in depth on the tactics used but addresses more recent claims about the hospital that originally hosted this video. There will be usage of words like torture. This also will mention a prolific case where the victim ended up becoming a terrible person- murder may be mentioned. This case was only brought up due to its prolific nature.

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

Terminology used

RAMCOA: A specific subset of purposeful abuse, known to primarily be done by groups. Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

TBMC: Trauma/Torture Based Mind Control.

Mk-Ultra: A government run CIA project/operation meant to try and mind control agents and civilians alike. This has heavy ties to TBMC.

Syscourse: System based discourse that tends to happen surrounding plurality or multiplicity (a self-schema) and DID/OSDD-1 a dissociative disorder that often has the Alters be highly focused upon. Syscourse usually culminates in fights between those with "endogenic plurality" and "CDDs" (CDDs are known as Complex Dissociative Disorders) we engage in this on our main and mention it as it does tie into the sorts of reasons the claims surfaced recently.

TLDR; There are possible and reasonable claims that McLean plausibly could have had a hand in Mk-Ultra in the past. It is fact that they have ties to Mk-Ultra, by association with Harvard Medical. The ties do not by any means implicate them in any form of guilt. There is no evidence that McLean for certain ever had any involvement in the past, however it is plausible. There is absolutely NO reason to suspect the hospital currently in the year of 2023, fifty years after the project (if they even had any hand in it), has been closed. The resurfacing of this discussion happened due to victims of similar experiences (TBMC/RAMCOA) becoming triggered by the aforementioned video and finding this information out and not doing their due diligence to handle any of it with the care it deserves. This was not the time to bring this up, this is a separate discussion that should have never been tied to the video. The current way the claims and accusations are being handled and the fear mongering is a net negative both for this discussion and for causing unnecessary distrust in doctors who are there to genuinely help. Additionally there are false claims mixed in with the true ones, such as the claim that McLean continued to partake in horrific experiments until 1987, which has no source other than a known conspiracy theorist.

Full Post

We were planning to stay fully out of syscourse for a little while but seeing as things/discussions for RAMCOA got crosstagged as syscourse we ended up running into something that we want to thoroughly stamp out the idea of. To preface this, yes, we are a RAMCOA survivor. The full details we have stated ever are very minimal, we are purposefully hiding a shit ton of things. However what remains is the fact we are a victim of TBMC, our RAMCOA was more focused upon MC than any other aspect. As such we took a very specific interest in this situation. Feel free to tag this post as syscourse if you want, we do not consider it such ourselves as this pertains directly to a type of trauma.

There is actually a loose connection to be made between McLean hospital and MK-Ultra. McLean Hospital had ties to Harvard Medical, which has been purportedly linked to MK-Ultra. The one declassified governmental mind control project.

This dates back all the way to 1977, this is not the only claim of Harvard's involvement either. In fact anyone who is morbidly curious may know of a famous case very, very well. Theodore Kaczynski, otherwise known as the Unabomber. It is a known fact that this man was a victim of MK Ultra and experimentation by Harvard. This has been known for a very long time.

To be clear TBMC does not excuse murder. We as a survivor of TBMC ourselves are not a danger, however it must be recognized that in some cases people are not criminally responsible due to their mental functionality. This is similar to a case where someone pleads insanity- the actions are heinous and still were UNDENIABLY his doing. We are not saying he should not be blamed, nor are we making light of his victims. Explanations are not excuses.

Some minimal sources.

The Atlantic

Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber

A series of purposely brutalizing psychological experiments may have confirmed Theodore Kaczynski’s still-forming belief in the evil of scie

Exploring your mind

The Harvard Experiment that Led to the Unabomber

Although he participated in a Harvard experiment and is extremely smart, Ted Kaczynski is now serving time in a maximum-security...

These are only one of many many articles, videos, deep dives, and talks about this situation and the irreparable damage that the way human experimentation in the USA has messed people up in more recent times.

If you had any awareness of the general situation surrounding these things you would realize the claims are predicated upon a long standing history of Harvard Medical specifically having definitive ties and accusations to ties with MK-Ultra. The accusations have not arisen out of thin air, this isn't a new claim, this has been brought up numerous times in the past. These claims came well before the current issue surrounding one man's horrendous presentation on DID- the DSM-4 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 4th Edition) even was made after accusations of Harvard Medical being tied to Mk-Ultra.

Harvard Medical spawned McLean Hospital

People are making an association and are wondering if this was one of the ways that Harvard Medical along with the CIA accessed victims. This wonder does however have no definitive answers from what we can gather and should not be treated as fact.

Additionally many people have reasonable and not unfounded fears that said practices never truly stopped. However, these for the current day and year, 2023 are unfounded claims. A reasonable fear or reasonable feeling still does not always denote truth in what is feared. It is reasonable for us to fear the Christian faith given our history, however it factually is not pure evil and can be practiced healthily. (Not a great comparison but we had to think of something)

The debunked accusations of specifically McLean hospital being involved was from 1987 in which a conspiracy theorist claimed McLean was still doing these horrific experiments and tortures. The thing that was disproven was that they had continued to be involved, not that they had never been involved. To our understand the difference in these two cases is that there is numerous possible claims that McLean may have been involved in the past but only one which claimed this from a very untrustworthy source.

There is currently no evidence to prove they were not involved. However there is also seemingly no evidence to prove Mclean Hospital were involved as well. Due to the connections in administration in that time period, it is reasonable to conclude that it is plausible that Mclean did contribute all the way back when MK-Ultra was active, just as much as it is reasonable to conclude it is plausible they did not.

Does this mean it should be treated as fact? No. But the RAMCOA survivors who immediately learn of these connections and assume the worst are having a reasonable emotional reaction when paired with what RAMCOA survivors like us have experienced. The feelings are reasonable, but the fact of the matter in many cases just seems to not be there.

By denying the plausibility you are plausibly denying the experience of victims who are still alive to this day. As such many people (us included) still feel weird about definitively saying that there is no chance this happened in the past. However we must be fully aware and acknowledge that there is not enough evidence of this being the case, therefore it is wrong from a factual point to say that they were involved.

Again, does this reflect the modern day?

Absolutely not. I would say that to our knowledge the majority of doctors at the hospital who are (especially) younger than their 50 are not involved nor should be implicated. Anyone who was a child when Mk-Ultra launched and/or concluded should be automatically removed from a list of possible perpetrators. Additionally it will only harm what we do believe could be good doctors who had no idea of these things, many people today are far removed from things like Mk-Ultra, many if not most may have had no awareness of the past allegations.

You can address the fact that worries or claims that McLean Hospital or Harvard Medical today are doing this as false, without fully denying the plausibility of a dark past. Especially when it comes to Harvard Medical.

(Side note, just because something came form another organization does not necessarily mean they did the same practices. Additionally, I would argue, given the history of government projects only those directly involved with the experimentation would be aware of what was occurring and not all workers even within the hospital).

We took it upon ourselves to look into it initially- we already knew about the Unabomber being an Mk-Ultra victim, we only recently knew he had ties to Harvard Medical. And yes, we have found a few claims that the specific hospital he was put in when tortured was McLean, but those have only been on articles that require one to sign up or buy fully access which we are not doing.

Please just try and understand why some RAMCOA survivors have reacted the way they have, do more than just look on reddit or see that one lunatic claiming McLean was continuing on Mk-Ultra in 1987. Because what many are doing is resorting to a long time form of systemic oppression against RAMCOA survivors. The default of calling all of them delusional and conspiracy theorists. It is not delusion to see something so similar to your experience and make a connect even if it is faulty, delusion is another mental health issue entirely.

Acknowledge how things can be emotional reactions, while also acknowledging the bits of truth within those reactions. We do not think that this being brought up in response to specifically the DID video is good- we think it creates fear and leads to fear mongering about hospitals and doctors. This is something that should be brought up and addressed in its own right. But the timing was poor, and the reasons behind it were filled and fueled with people who were triggered in a variety of ways and were not actually discussing it out of concern for the victims. (We are usually not big on what the motivations behind something are but when your motivations end up seeping through and possibly harming an important discussion it does become a concern.)

As a RAMCOA survivor I don't feel safe in the CDD community or the plural community. Both sides villainize us while also doing performative allyship and pretending to care about survivors. We're evil if we come forward and save our childhood friends and loved ones. We're evil if we share information to help survivors know why they're experiencing what they're experiencing. Our therapist is supposed to magically figure out what exact symptoms were experiencing without us ever voicing anything because we don't have the language to explain it. We're always told to shut up and be quiet and then non-survivors get to walk all over us and speak for us without ever considering that maybe it's not their place to EVER get involved in any form of discourse around what we can do or not. Quite literally this is a case of oppressors speaking for those they oppress. Broader society also wants us to be silent because we're seen as too depressing. Too much. It's seen as normal and okay to encourage survivors to let their programming fully take them other as long as it's not the ones that hurt others or dares to make people see scars on you. Then that's a problem but people like us should just disappear and stay silent like our programmers wanted. That's the message that is given so often when people talk about us. The other message is we would be better off dead than dare speak.

What counts as TBMC? Ex-Pentecostal wanting to know because I never really see clear and concise definitions on these things and trying to research RAMCOA gives me a lot of dodgy right wing rhetoric which I don't want to keep having to comb through for my own sanity.

TBMC is known by as two things. One: trauma based mind control. Two: torture based mind control.

Most survivors we've also ran into prefer the former because it tends to include things that are less extreme and not everyone feels their trauma went far enough to be considered torture. It's also unfortunately true that a lotta alt-righters tend to get into mind control in a more co-opting nature, which is ironic given the group that did that to us was alt-right. Honestly we find the TB to be unnecessary given mind control is always traumatic and is inherently horrific.

What counts as TBMC?

TBMC is something done primarily through abusive means to induce a dissociative state, in which one becomes more suggestible. This can be done in order to intentionally create parts/alters (when done starting on someone as a child in rare cases) or just to make someone behave the way you want them to. This is why sometimes people who are abducted by other countries as agents betray their old group and join in with their abusers. (For an extreme example). Other ways the dissociative state is achieved is through putting people into forms of trances. This can be done with meditation or mantras, forced hypnotization, and at times substances.

We've got a good mixture of both mind control and conditioning. The conditioning is done more via Pavlov's Dogs type experiences and "training" and is less tied to TBMC and typically easier to train out of. Mind control- especially in those raised with it- is driven into a part of their personality. It becomes an essential piece of the whole identity and it is not something that can be taken away without proper aid and therapy. You cannot deprogram yourself from mind control the way you can "uncondition" yourself, so to speak.

Anything that was driven into you while in a dissociative state (thus highly suggestible) or being actively traumatized that is ideological, personal, an act, behaviors, etc. is typically a form of mind control. A very common example of this is being made to be fully and completely dependent upon your leader/an authority figure. This may result in what is reminiscent of worship of the individual and in some cases leaves the victims incapable of making decisions. To this day we have to ask friends in desperation what food we should eat because the idea of deciding for ourselves is far too difficult. We roll dice connected to numbers to mark our decisions in hopes of having a way to make a choice. (And again, this is but one example.)

Some of the information we have garnered on the subject comes from a variety of sources more heavily focused upon cults as that was what we grew up in and with. We have dug deep into the information on what makes a cult a cult and what signs of specific types of cultic programming we exhibit. Even then programming can be hard to categorize and know what is meant by because it's so personal and specific in its application. I am uncertain if we are of much help- but I will say we personally see no harm in if you find spaces appropriate for it, asking if specific things you expect may be programming or signs of TBMC are able to be labeled as such. That's what we had to do to accept we were a RAMCOA survivor as we originally had less memories of the cult until given the name by our parents (to be clear we did this only because we were already in therapy and part of our recovery and work is being done in order to come out against the group and the leader, and have full legal protections as a whistle blower)

most of my OSDD comics are gone from the internet AFAIK but I thought this one would be good to reupload (also sometimes you have to google psychologytoday dissociative disorder to get the category to show up)

People should be allowed to talk about RAMCOA. Is it fucked up? Yes. Should you be careful if you're gonna look into it? Also yes.

But the fact that most people don't even know it exists is wrong. You can't stop something from happening if you don't know it's happening in the first place.

say it with me. your trauma is valid even if:

the ones who hurt you were/are traumatized individuals.

you are/appear functional.

it was not caused by a romantic partner or family member.

“it could have been avoided”.

no one knows about it.

“it’s not that bad”

other people had it worse.

someone went through the same experience and does not feel debilitated by it.

it occurred a long time ago / you feel just fine now.

the ones who hurt you have apologized.

be gentle with yourself today, folks. feel free to add.

Unless you’re uncomfortable with them having number names continue let them using their number name. It’s not disrespectful and they’re not exclusive. It’s not like a close practice. How many singlets do you know with the name zero, I know, at least three. Unlike close practises number names are just something that happens. There’s lots of reasons for them to exist, yes RAMCOA is one but there is many more. Our Ramcoa support group had talked about this and basically everybody there and a lot of other people I’ve talk to have a greed that it’s not exclusive, so unless you’re uncomfortable continue using them. If people are giving you shit about this redirect them to like people like me or switch case. 

i have a bit of a question regarding using number names as a non-RAMCOA survivor.

we have alters and many fragments who have numbers for/instead of names. we’ve been questioning being RAMCOA survivors for a while, but ultimately decided to simply drop it as it was damaging us and our mental health more than anything, and it really isn’t something we should’ve been looking into at all in the first place without the help of a therapist. i personally (jay) don’t believe we’re a RAMCOA survivor, but many others in the system genuinely do and it’s not exactly a debate we can settle easily.

my question is, what do we do about these alters and fragments? we don’t actually know whether we’re a survivor or not. do we just not let them front, or force them to pick names (something we have tried, but made them extremely upset/uncomfortable because according to them they had names, which were their numbers)? none of them front very often anyways, but right now anytime any of them have fronted they’ve essentially just been told they can’t talk anywhere publicly. we’re really stuck on what to do. we know it’s disrespectful, but we also don’t have any idea for sure if we can use them or not, and like i said we’ve completely dropped trying to figure it out because of how both damaging and potentially dangerous it was. what do we do?

my depression tips:

* whenever you go to the bathroom, try to do one hygiene task like brushing your teeth, moisturising or washing your face, bc ur already in there so you might as well

* leave out clothes in the bathroom so if u feel like you have the energy to shower you don’t have to waste time on picking out clothes, you can just get straight in

* if u wanna shave but you don’t have the energy, u can get an electric shaver and shave in bed, you won’t get as much hair off but it still does something

* get some of those one time use, water free toothbrushes and keep some next to ur bed, and use some water and any empty bowl or container to spit the toothpaste into. you can also keep a mini mouthwash next to your bed

* for food, try to get ready made meals and frozen meals. i keep a mini fridge in my room with drinks and snacks so if i can’t make it down to the kitchen i have something to fuel my body with

* if u can’t clean your room, make a list in order of priority (mine is floor, bed and surfaces) and whenever you feel like u can or u get a random burst of energy, just do a little bit

* keep a waterbottle next to your bed, and if you have clean tap water refill it whenever you go to the bathroom. i usually use fizzy water and squash so i feel like i’m drinking soda but it’s much healthier

* if u can’t get out of bed but wanna feel more clean, change your underwear and your shirt, then use some dry shampoo and wipes on ur armpits and sweaty areas

* if u have pets, make them a priority bc they need you to live, and they care about you so much, so spending time with them will make u feel better and loved

* if u can’t brush ur hair, don’t tie it up bc it will turn into a rat’s nest and you just don’t wanna have to deal with that. even detangling it with your fingers is better than nothing. also braiding it will protect it

* if u can’t sleep, lying still and closing your eyes still is rly good rest, and if u don’t wanna be alone with your thoughts you can listen to a podcast (any true crime or mythology ones are my fave)

* buy multiple pairs of ur comfort outfits so you always have something you want to wear to change into

* try to get up and open your window to air your room out of the smell, incense also works well to cover it

* to keep you entertained, here are some ideas:

* listen to ur fave songs, podcasts or an audiobook

* browse some social medias (tiktok, reddit and tumblr are my faves)

* join a discord server and just kinda idle on that and watch ppl chat

* play a mindless game on ur phone or if u have a handheld device like a switch (on my phone i love life is strange and on my switch i’ve been playing legend of zelda: breath of the wild)

* read some fanfics on ur phone (all the young dudes is a must read)

* kids activity books of ur fave fandoms are rly fun

* read some webtoons (heartstopper is amazing)

* watching a game play through on youtube (minecraft and skyrim ones are my faves)

* rewatching ur comfort movies or watching some funny cartoons

* if u have a laptop, download sims and play that

I’ve been having a bit of a rough time the past couple weeks so I’ve decided to make a self care post of things I do when I’m feeling crappy for other people going through a rough time!

If you’re feeling overwhelmed or anxious then breathe in slowly and deeply for 4 seconds, hold it for 7 seconds, then breathe out slowly for 8 seconds and repeat til you feel calmer. I’ve been told this way of breathing makes your heart rate slow down. It’s helped me not have panic attacks before

Drink water drink water DRINK WATER!!! Honestly a lot of the time when my body is feeling crappy, I just have been drinking enough water (if you struggle getting yourself to drink water then try getting flavor packets to put in it, it’ll make you more likely to want to drink it if it tastes good)

If you’re stuck in one of those vicious cycles of feeling sick because you haven’t eaten and then not eating because you feel sick, then seriously just force yourself to eat a piece of bread or toast or saltine crackers, even if it’s just a few bites. It’ll seriously help you feel just better enough to stomach eating more things a little bit later

Sprite helps settle upset stomachs (this is my go to method for car sickness)

Coca Cola can help with migraines

If you’re congested take hot showers or boil some water, place a towel over your head and lean over the pot breathing in the steam

If you have phlegm in your throat, gargle salt water, it can help clear it out. Doing this consistently for a few days is really helpful

If you’re feeling under the weather at all then drink orange juice or take vitamin c tablets or gummies, vitamin c boosts your immune system

If you’re about to have a panic attack find something physical to focus on or ask someone to bring you something if you can’t yourself. Something that you can feel is a very good option like an icecube to hold or a cold water bottle to press against your face

Drinking cold water when on the verge of a panic attack or coming away from one is helpful too, the sensation of cold water going down your throat can be very calming

If you don’t have anything like those around you then try to list things you can hear or see. Also physical movements can keep you grounded, this is especially helpful if you have someone to talk you through it. Start by rolling your wrists, then flex and unflex your fingers, try doing this with individual fingers, and alternate between these, even adding in more things like rolling your head or shoulders

If you’re feeling lightheaded, especially if you think you might pass out then sit down and put your head between your knees for a while

If you’re going through a depressive episode, if you can’t muster up their energy or motivation for anything else, at least go outside for a few minutes even if you’re in your pajamas. The sunlight and fresh air will help immensely. If you can’t then at least open your window

Open your windows periodically to freshen the air in your room

When you’re feeling crappy take showers! Even if you have to drag yourself in there and just sit in the tub with the water raining down on you, even if you can’t find the motivation to wash your hair (you can even just tie it up and out of the way) just get yourself in there, it’ll do you a world of good to feel at least a little more hygienic

Along these same lines, brush your teeth! Even if that means doing it for half the time you should or even without toothpaste. One of my roommates even just kept a toothbrush on her nightstand and on bad depression days she’d brush with that, where she could do it in bed

Get dressed! Don’t spend all day in your pjs! Even if it’s just changing into sweats or other comfy clothes! Do it! And take the time to dress up nice for yourself once in a while!

If you have any motivation at all for it, clean your room!!! Even if this means just picking up one item of clothing or throwing something on the floor away, it’s a million times better than nothing and you’ll feel better for it even if just a bit

Anyways, I love you all! Take care of yourselves! If you ever need advice or someone to talk to I’m here for you! I love and appreciate all of you! I’m proud of you for everything you’ve accomplished even if it’s just getting yourself out of bed!

I would not suggest the deprogrammed wiki, lots of miss information there, but there is some true stuff there too. Just wanted to add that! 

RAMCOA* Resources

Trigger warning: the content on these websites contain discussions of rape, abuse, and trauma-based mind control. PLEASE be careful with yourself, especially if you’re a survivor.

Survive’s page on ritual abuse

General information, does not include information about mind control. Aimed at survivors and allies.

BRISSC’s page on ritual abuse

General information, does not include information about mind control. Aimed at survivors and allies.

RAMCOA Resources Carrd

A very thorough resource on RA and mind control. Contains information on different types of programmed alters and their terms, a general definition of ritual abuse and TBMC, common trigger dates for survivors, and what you can do to help. Aimed at allies. The information here can possibly be triggering if you are a survivor or suspect you are a survivor.

endritualabuse.org

A vast site on ritual abuse and mind control, created by a psychologist who has worked with survivors of RA. Contains information, words from survivors to survivors, and symptom lists of survivors, mostly intended for therapists and professionals. As a survivor, I have found many helpful things for recovery on this site, but please be careful on which articles you read. The information part of this site is very thorough and can possibly be triggering if you are a survivor or suspect you are a survivor.

Deprogram Wiki

This is a site that is a gold mine for information on detecting if someone is a victim of TBMC and programming, the different types of programmed alters, and, specifically for therapists or professionals, how to deprogram someone who has been a victim of RAMCOA. HEAVY TRIGGER WARNING — this site is NOT intended for survivors at all and can be extremely triggering.

*RAMCOA - an acronym that stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

hope this is okay to ask but how would a system who suspects RAMCOA figure out what their programming type is if they show signs of a few different kinds? alternatively; are different techniques sometimes programmed together?

(Warning ahead of time; I will not be censoring any words or topics here. Also, I talk a lot.)

I want to emphasize ahead of time: most cases of RAMCOA do not involve programming. RAMCOA exists on a wide spectrum, and programming is extreme conditioning, starting as a young child, that specifically creates dissociative barriers (thus, creating a system) which requires consistent access and organization. Most cases of RAMCOA do have some levels of conditioning, but well defined programs are considerably less common. You can be a RAMCOA survivor without programming (or, in our case, loosely defined and poorly executed programs that border on "normal" conditioning).

Anyways...

I've recommended this before, but track your symptoms. RAMCOA relies on patterns & consistency, but especially programming. Track emotions, internal system happenings, switches, and their triggers the best you can (whether using a digital medium like Notion or a physical journal). Being able to correlate specific dates & stimuli to symptoms will make a huge difference. Part of how we figured out we have some sort of proto-Delta (aggression, fearlessness, emotional detachment, etc.) programming is through noting how we reacted to wounds/blood, both ours and others'; how specific parts front or come closer to front during times of stress or fear; vague memories of forced perpetration being triggered by certain weapons, scents, or bodily positions; etc.

It is honestly way rarer to find a system with one kind of program in this context. This because nearly all have some sort of basic obedience training, often referred to as "alpha" programming. Another near-universal program is some sort of access program: basically, a way in for programmers to call alters to the front, modify & implant programs, etc. Other kinds of programs are stacked on top of this, relating to whatever the victim's "specialization" would be. For example, sex trafficking that utilized programming would result in a victim probably having some sort of transport program (often to fall asleep on command so they do not know the route or location), one or multiple of the many sexual related programs, an amnesia on command program, and typically, some sort of therapy & abreaction interference program. And that's just the bare bones.

Additionally, some victims may not have a singular specialization, possibly because they were some sort of experimental ground for new programs or new combinations of programs, their group was not very organized or changed focus mid-programming of the victim, or they were the child of higher-ups in the group and expected to perform more complex roles.

If by "technique", you mean different methods of implantation or organization, that is also somewhat par for the course. Some groups change goal or formation over time, others may on-board programmers with a different "style" (an organized crime syndicate utilizing a programmer with a military background, for example). I know that only some of our system is structured strictly & militaristically, because one of our abusers was in the military.

Also... Don't be afraid of being wrong. Sorting out what happened with RAMCOA is confusing on multiple levels—trauma & dissociation warps memories, abusers will lie and trick victims, what happened is often decade(s) old, etc. You are allowed to question, research, and, if you want to, join survivor's spaces. It will be a long journey, but you are not the first and, unfortunately, quite definitely not the last.

I hope your answers come quickly, painlessly, and clearly. - Aisling

Can you explain what a shell alter is and what their purpose is? /gen

Shell alters are a dissociated system member who is fronting all the time, or almost all the time. They often lack elaboration. Shells work as an interface between the rest of the system & the outside world by never leaving front, and having the rest of the system either blending with them temporariality or being forced into co-consciousness. This serves a few purposes; make the system more covert, mask inter-switch amnesia, blunt or filter out emotions/urges/etc. from the rest of the system, and more. It's uncommon, but there can be multiple shells one system, serving different subroles.

In some cases of OSDD-1a, the shell is the "unified" identity. Think like, if the system is made up of "angry Sarah", "scared Sarah", "work Sarah", etc., that shell would be the "Sarah" identity.

They're most commonly seen in OSDD-1a, but can come up in other forms of multiplicity, like DID, but typically when RAMCOA is in the picture. Although it can be daunting, healing with a shell is possible. You can reached out to them, they can be integrated, they gain more elaboration, etc etc. Whatever healing path works for you.

We don't have a shell, but I'm sure some pwDID/OSDD on this hellsite (affectionate) have talked about their experiences with them more in depth. There isn't a ton of research on them — many sites point to Alison Miller's books, but there's no actual like, raw data, just summations of what's she's found in her practice/case studies — so take that as you will.

Each shell is a different, and different systems may use slightly different definitions. Hopefully this was a good overview. -Aisling

i’ve been told by a lot of people that robot alters who do what they’re told are from programming only. this is really scary to me because i did not experience that despite having an alter like that. i think if i had heard this as a younger system it would have made me very scared and convinced me of things that didn’t happen. can you share your thoughts on this?

Hi,

Blaming any presentation of DID or alters strictly on programming is a horrible idea. You're right that these kinds of claims are a major risk for false memories of ritual abuse, especially for young, newly diagnosed systems who are struggling immensely, still coming to terms with their symptoms and abuse history, and might be overly quick to take anything that older and seemingly authoritative systems claim at face value. I've heard of these types of claims going around for polyfragmentation, subsystems, internal worlds, and non-human alters. None of them are true. 

There are many reasons that someone could have a robot alter that does what it's told. It could be a metaphor for feeling like one's parents treated them like a robot instead of a child. It could have arisen from feeling like one's parents would have loved them more or punished them less if they were an obedient robot instead of a disobedient child. It could have been influenced by media that struck a cord regarding how robots were shown being treated or viewed by society. There's no reason whatsoever to assume robot parts or any other type of part automatically indicates any organized abuse, let alone programming.

There is no single or even combination of factors that can definitively indicate that someone experienced ritual abuse, programming, or any other type of trauma. Only actual memories (preferably continuous or spontaneously recovered, not recovered through hypnotherapy, creative writing, dream interpretation, or other potentially suggestive processes) or external corroboration of abuse can be trusted. No one should ever retroactively make assumptions about one’s abuse experiences based on adult symptoms, and no one should ever deny or downplay adult symptoms because they don’t have any of the causes that the individual has come to expect. That isn’t how mental health or DID/OSDD-1 work. That is how the Satanic ritual abuse panic got so incredibly out of hand. 

I’m glad that you were able to recognize that your robot part doesn’t indicate programming, and I appreciate you alerting us of this and giving us the opportunity to debunk it. 

I hope this helps,

Katherine

Adhd really is like... bedroom is slightly messy it would be nice to tidy it some

bedroom is very messy I really should tidy up

bedroom is chaotic I NEED to tidy but my brain says no. Why. Whyyy.

I guess I’ll just have to watch where I step in here for the rest of my life. The mess is everywhere. I’m one with the mess.

A sudden Need to Clean™ makes you get the room looking like some fancy homes magazine cover, and you think “I’ll never ever let it get that bad again, and then...

bedroom is slightly messy (uh oh)

thanks! i was wondering what helps you safely deal with/ resist callbacks in general? i hope i worded that ok, if it‘s too triggering to talk about please don‘t.

It's not triggering at all! Don't worry one bit. We took a while because we were vacationing (and getting used to my boyfriend snoring like a chainsaw directly into my eardrum)!

Callback is tricky for us because it's one of the few well-executed programs we have. Our situation was poorly planned, so most of the attempted conditioning ended up messy. Teenage ad-hoc groups aren't exactly known for their consistency.

Something to keep in mind is that programming does not come from nowhere. It exaggerates and warps common trauma responses. It is a common experience in abuse survivors to have the urge to return, and that means there are lots of resources on this topic! Yes, a survivor of extreme conditioning presents differently than a ""normal"" DV/abuse survivor, but at its core, it's the same mechanisms.

For us, in particular, though:

Identify material barriers. This is things like not having enough money, being in a location where you can't really leave freely (work, school, etc.), not having access to transit that will get you to a location, etc. Locking our credit card is example of introducing a material barrier ahead of time.

Identify nonmaterial barriers. This is social consequences like people missing you & having responsibilities that need fulfilling in the time frame, or less physical things like not having a method of contact (like lacking a phone number) or address.

Let someone be your accountabili-buddy. This doesn't have to be telling someone about programming, but it could be as simple as "can you please call me at x time" or "I will call you when my flight lands". This goes into nonmaterial barriers, but here, instead of passive "what if people miss me" or something, you are instead actively introducing someone who will be checking on you.

Good ol' grounding. Whatever method works for you(/y'all), it will help. Programming is a return to a time period, a way of thinking, that is incongruent to the current moment. Reminding yourself that it you are not in that place anymore (through whatever means you like) will help. Our favorite is music, especially newly-discovered stuff.

Mild reminders to how bad that trauma period was helps us. Fighting a program with flashbacks isn't ideal, so we try to keep the reminders abstract. "It was very scary back then and things are better now. We should not go back." That sorta thing. Our partner helps a lot with this, as he is not going to be specific (he does not know the details of course) but still reassuring and supportive.

See if switching will help. We come armed with many sensory-based triggers (a plush or two, music playlists, jewelry, access to food & drink) so we try to drag someone else's sorry ass into the mix, especially a non-conditioned part. Blake, a physical protector and top layer resident, is our default "walking in potentially dangerous area" headmate and he ended up escorting us through the airport a lot!

We did all of these while we travelled last week, and we ended up perfectly fine. We were on the phone with our partner nearly the entire time, kept ourselves fed & watered, and honestly? Enjoyed it. We like the odd liminality of airports and despite an hour delay for one of our flights, we actually had a great time travelling.

We wish you luck!

Are there any RAMCOA-exclusive terms the system community needs to be aware of?

I know system hopping, system resets, and shell alters have had their meanings butchered, but then I see some debate about if "sidesystem" is RAMCOA-exclusive (or at least only experienced by RAMCOA survivors), as well as how gatekeeper and polyfragmentation aren't RAMCOA-exclusive but often have their meanings that tie back to that erased.

I... Can't think of any.

Terms being exclusive to RAMCOA¹ is kind of tricky as 1) most people who have gone through RAMCOA have little awareness of it, both in their own memory & not being aware of the terminology and community 2) RAMCOA is a continuum, meaning it's hard to define what is or isn't "enough" to qualify as RAMCOA, and 3) there are few rules as to how a system copes with stress & trauma. Further, a lot of the language around RAMCOA is community-based, or from specific high-control abuser groups; it's just damn hard to track where things come from. I can say though that sidesystem has its roots in the larger community and I know multiple "regular" systems with sidesystems⁠—hell, we were using "sidesystem" before we gained more awareness of our OA⁠— and shells exist in other forms of multiplicity, specifically some OSDD-1a presentations.

System hopping & system resets are weird as well, as they describe phenomena that is related to RAMCOA, and I'd argue really a facet of the control and shutdowns with systems who have survived RAMCOA, but we did not come up with those names at all. System hopping is often used as a threat by abusers (like used in combination with something like twin programming), and resets can be programmed-in "rotations" of fronters, but... They are what the wider plural community called them, and what some survivors have adopted because they're now recognizable terms.

That being said, I do think the community should be more aware of how the history of OSDD & DID is based in the study of RAMCOA. I see so many younger systems now ignore or even mocking the concept of RA, lumping the entire phenomenon in with the Satanic Panic (even though many of us survivors were literally born after that ended), or buying into False Memory Syndrome rhetoric. I've literally seen folks saying "there's no evidence that repressed memories exist" as if we haven't proven that scientifically over and over again. I think it's an issue of folks trying to distance themselves so far from stuff like the Satanic Panic & more modern iterations like Qanon that they leave survivors like me behind. It reeks of respectability politics, and victims are exhausted with the decades of fakeclaiming.

I think we should be less worried about if certain terms are exclusive to RAMCOA survivors and more concerned with actually meaningful support, like looking into the research on it, knowing the history of our fight for recognition and The Memory Wars era (for example: do you know where the RAMCOA acronym comes from? Do you know what the Grey Faction is? Can you recognize how misogyny was weaponized, and how social services were targeted by politicians by using us as a pawn?), and recognizing harmful rhetoric.

(Sorry for the huge dump of text!!!)

¹ For the record, there are certain terms that are exclusive to RAMCOA by means of, well, that being in the definition; programming, for example, is... Obviously RAMCOA specific. However, almost all forms of abuse require some kind of conditioning so saying "conditioning" is RAMCOA exclusive is false. See? It's tricky.

what does nccsa mean?

con contact child sexual abuse, its sexual abuse that didnt involve any touching, examples below

Thank you for running this blog. I was held in troubled teen industry facilities for all of my teenagerhood, and am severely traumatized as a result, and it's been extremely hard to find words to describe what I went through to other systems or to trauma therapists.

It feels "too much", like there's no way this could all have happened to me, and I've been accused of lying about the organized abuse that went on there. Sometimes it feels almost like i AM lying, though I know I'm not.

Although feeling like I have "too much" trauma is something that I have to continue working on personally, I want to say thank you for pointing me in the direction of a framework that I can research and use that fits me more than any other one I've seen before.

I wish that none of us went through the horrors we went through, but I'm glad that there's a community out there and people talking about the things that have affected me. Thank you again for what you do running this blog.

Before anything else — thank you. This is an incredibly kind message and I'm really glad that you could find solace in this blog. I aim to provide resources that may not be (physically or emotionally) acessible otherwise, and highlight lesser-discussed aspects of RAMCOA.

The troubled teen industry is definitely part of the wider picture of organized abuse, and I wish it was put in that context more. Unfortunately, most discussions of RAMCOA focus on early childhood manifestations, and situations primarily focused on adolescents, adults, seniors aren't as referenced. Basically, the older the victim, the less likely it is to be included in definitions of RAMCOA; which is a shame, because those perspectives are crucial. Abusive care homes & inpatient facilities, prisons, and yes, troubled teen facilities are all forms of organized abuse in my mind, but the strong correlation with pedophile rings and cults has... Alienated? Many people from describing their experiences as OA.

I totally understand the feeling of having "too much trauma", and I feel like many survivors in general, not just ones of RAMCOA, can relate to that sentiment. "It's just too unlikely for all these things to have happened," I'll say to myself, "I must be exaggerating." Something that's helped me is the idea that some predators can smell blood in the water, and if all you know is hardship, it's hard to break out of hardship. Experiencing layers of trauma isn't... Rare, and you're not lying about it.

Once again, thank you. If you need any resources specific to the troubled teen industry, let me know. There's not a ton of research on it in the context of RAMCOA like I said, but I'm sure I'll find something of use.

Wishing you a gentle and fulfilling recovery. Aisling

Ello Ello, we are the Mountain cap collective, and this is our resource and talking about our system profile .

I’m not gonna go over all the  diagnosis because they are too numerous, but we will list some of the more important ones C-DID, ASD, ADHD, CPTSD,H-EDS, POTS, dyslexia and dyspraxia .

We are a RAMCOA survivor, we are not planning to talk in detail about it, but will plan to share basic information about RAMCOA and the basis of what we experienced . We are leftist, this is a safe space for all. This is not a page about blood liable and conspiracy, if you support that kind of shit, please leave the front door is wide open. We also don’t support narcissistic abuse (it’s called emotional or psychological abuse), we have low empathy ourselves because of the abuse we suffered&ASD, sooo Yeet!

Anyways, a quick get to know us!



Miloslav

They/Them

Host

🐱.

Ivan

He/Him

🌻.

Wolfy

He/They

🗡️🐈.

Lou

He/Him

⚜️.

Louis

He/They

🏞️.

Jippi

Any/All

🐈.

Honestly, that’s everybody who fronts enough so yeah!